when the Humboldt is counter-productive

[murphy4trees]

In suburban arboriculture, the open face or traditional face has many more practical applications than the Humboldt. Some west coast guys can't cut anything else. Some non-west coast guys try to cut the Humboldt on everything because they see the west coast guys doing it like that. The Humboldt offers some major advantageous properties in certain scenarios, but these are mostly in a logging scenario. The open face is a much better option for the average arborist in a backyard setting. I'll never be able to cut a Humboldt as well as Reg or Pat Lacey because I don't care enough about it to perfect the technique or have the opportunity of falling the number of trees they do. On the rare occasion that I need it, I will limp through enough to get the job done. On the other hand, the guys that can only cut a Humboldt are left at a serious disadvantage in many scenarios. This being one of them.

 

[lxskllr]

So, why's the Humboldt a disadvantage there? The only thing I can see is the high stump.

 

[murphy4trees]

cut trees much?

 

[lxskllr]

You already know the answer to that. Care to go back to my question?

 

[murphy4trees]

Here's my comment on YouTube:
With all those small pieces to whittle away at the face, the cut would be much easier if you used a traditional or an open face.. angled cut first. You keep crawling around on your knees and bending down to look up into the cut. Up and down over and over again to try to match the cuts, without overcutting to mess up the gun, and then cleaning out the apex. That was a little painful to watch. If you need the Humboldt to save flushing off a log that's going to the mill, then maybe it would be worth the trouble. Or if you were trying to get the but to slide forward off the stump and hit before the top to avoid breaking the trunk that would be another good reason. With the open face you could do the whole face from your feet and have a much better view of what is going on in there. It would be SO MUCH EASIER! Also a lot easier to adjust the gun after the face is made of you need to. At least twice as fast on the face and a lot less likely to accidentally leave a dutchman. Also if you plunged the start of the back cut from both sides, you wouldn't have any trouble trying to get the height of the back cut set properly. You could also center plunge the hinge from the front to leave a post on each side, which would make that cut a little easier as for that simple a fall, you really don't need the full hinge to go side to side.

 

[stig]

How many tries was it you needed on the last facecut, you showed?
And then you couldn't get the backcut level.
Yep, you are certainly the right person to comment on other's work.

 

[murphy4trees]

18 seconds for the floor cut if that notch... I couldn't care less what you think

 

[Burnham]

Well, in that we can find common ground, Mr. Murphy...I couldn't care less what you think, either.

 

[Sven]

Times the Humboldt is beneficial in residential work:
Falling downhill, getting tops to land flat and break less= easier cleanup, getting the last couple logs to land flatish when in a tight spot= less lawn damage. I use whichever undercut makes the guy on the ground have an easier time and less raking for us.

@lxskllr the high stump is one, conventional or open face is arguably easier to cut, conventional if one wants a log to flip faster aloft so it lands flat, open-face has more time before hinge breaks. Not complete lists but hope that helps.

 

[murphy4trees]

while the Humboldt definitely has some advantages, it's pretty clear from the last tree in this video that it's a lot easier to use the open face or traditional when those advantages are not needed.

 

[chris_girard]

Why is the Humboldt favored on the West coast?

Does it have to do with scaling the timber once felled?

Personally, I always use the open face notch on the ground and usually the Humboldt up in the tree.

 

[lxskllr]

 

[chris_girard]

Thanks!

Should have just pulled out my Fundamentals Book and looked it up. Pretty cool stuff!

 

[treebilly]

I’m pretty fluent with the humbolt in the air. When my feet touch the ground is another story. I keep practicing when the situation calls for it because I aim to be a more well rounded individual. In my situation, most of my mill logs go to the pallet or blocking mill so root flare isn’t an issue. Saves me from having to deal with a short block to haul away. Now in my simple mind, dismissing one way or another is being ignorant. Learning what applies to the situation is where it’s at. Not perfect but aspiring to be every day

 

[Tree09]

I guess what's the advantage in the air? Butt hitting first so you can take bigger bites?

 

[treebilly]

Also keeping it from kicking back on you if it hangs up. Wide open drip zone that’s not an issue. Tight canopy, whole different story. With logs it’s easier to shove the butt for a flat landing than a conventional. Using gravity to assist kinda thang

 

[Burnham]

And that other benefit that Murph derides me for espousing...keeps the chips thrown out of your face when using the top of your bar, as is normal when up the tree. Especially aloft, I rather like keeping my vision clear...maybe that's just a little quirk of mine .

 

[murphy4trees]

I AM all for a Humboldt at height in the tree. And have stopped climbers to insist they use it when there is a chance of the top hanging up early in a large falling top scenario. And I wish you all would stop misquoting me. It's petty to have to keep saying "NO I DIDN'T SAY THAT".
I have nothing against the Humboldt or the men who use it when there is a good reason to do so. Anytime you're getting paid for the log there are some benefits. However in most suburban falling scenarios the pros and cons of the Humboldt vs traditional or open do not favor the Humboldt. There are many examples in videos where the Humboldt is simply impractical for any number of reasons. Those are the times I criticize its use and those fallers that seemed locked into it no matter what.

And for the scenarios when the Humboldt is actually a safer cut and may have other advantages, every arborist should work to develop skill at cutting them. I personally suck at the cut but manage to whittle away enough to get the desired effect on the rare occasions that they are called for. And again the Humboldt is my go-to cut when taking tops.

 

[murphy4trees]

I guess what's the advantage in the air? Butt hitting first so you can take bigger bites?

mostly it keeps the but from sliding back over the stem and landing in your lap since you have nowhere to go. If it the speared tip of a traditional or open face cut top gets under your lanyard, you're screwed. Any time you use a traditional or open face, you create an inclined plane that wants to slide the butt right back off the stump, 180 degrees to the lay. If there is any chance of the top hanging up early in its movement, that inclined plane will take all the energy that was getting generated in moving the top forward and use it to push the but backward.

Also, when throwing tops you want early hinge failure with minimal time and resistance in the hinge to slow the (forward) motion of the top. The Humboldt changes the way force acts on the hinge fibers which tends to pop cleanly rather than slowly stretch and tear. With the Humboldt, you can count on the pieces separating when the top has moved enough degrees to close the face. With the open face or traditional, you have to factor in added time and at least 10 degrees of added movement after the face closes before you get separation. The hinge thickness, momentum of the top and species will affect that 10 degrees and could make it 15 or more degrees. That's a variable that is not needed to account for when using the Humboldt. I also think that a narrow Humboldt will take you for less of a ride (less push back) than any traditional or open face, due to the way force is transferred from the top into the stem. The west coast guys topping 150'+ skinny conifers know more about that. It's rarely a factor on east coast trees.

 

[stig]

I AM all for a Humboldt at height in the tree. And have stopped climbers to insist they use it when there is a chance of the top hanging up early in a large falling top scenario. And I wish you all would stop misquoting me. It's petty to have to keep saying "NO I DIDN'T SAY THAT".

Yes you did!

You pretty much said that all Burnham has done to treework is shoving people how to keep sawdust out of their pockets.
It was during one of your " I am the greatest treemean ever and everybody else are worthless" rants.

You are right BTW.
With the amount of complete nonsense that you constantly spout, there is no reason to misquote you.
You do such a fine job on your own, of coming off like an idiot.

 

[murphy4trees]

Yes you did!

You pretty much said that all Burnham has done to treework is shoving people how to keep sawdust out of their pockets.
It was during one of your " I am the greatest treemean ever and everybody else are worthless" rants.

find the quote then.... or STFU

 

[Mellow]

Hahaha, nice bump!