What, exactly IS a 'hack' tree person?

[thattreeguy]

wow the hacks are getting angry now,
pollarding and topping..are 2 different styls lets not confuse the 2
i wish i had more time to write now, but have 2 sneak my pos chip truck south
is wesspur machine sales a bunch of hacks for selling me this truck?...hmmmm

 

[Frans]

Most of the condemnation of Hacks comes from percieved aesthetics, rather than morality differences. NOBODY is in this business as a charity.
e.g. - certified arborists will take endless amount of money from customers for deadwooding and thinning trees in the full knowledge that the works carried out are of NO benefit to the trees health whatsoever. In fact, the continuall removal of dead wood has proven to be extremely detrimental to the wider eco system in the long term. So can I now accuse these arborists of being Hacks? Or should we all just live and let live, and concentrate on what we are doing, rather than the mistakes everyone else is making.
__________________

Good point.
Most pruning has nothing to do with the actual health of the tree.

Ed, this is a 'thorny' issue indeed.

 

[Thor's Hammer]

Good point.
Most pruning has nothing to do with the actual health of the tree.

And pruning that is 'beneficial' to the tree may be detrimental to the wider ecosystem.

 

[jomoco]

Anyone that believes topping a tree doesn't affect the structural integrity of the tree is indeed a hack in my opinion.

I've seen too many ripped out secondary growth leaders firsthand to think or believe otherwise.

Primary growth is always stronger than secondary and tertiary growth everytime.

True pollarding requires annual or bi-annual pruning to achieve, and it has a discipline that must be adhered to precisely.

jomoco

 

[High Scale]

I am a hack, a fat bastard in the southern hemisphere told me so.

 

[Mr. Sir]

I think it's time for a bible verse

1 “Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2 “For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3 “Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 “Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5 “You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye."

- Matthew 7:1-5

 

[rumination]

I'm not a bag fan of throwing around bible verses, but that one is actually quite good.

 

[Mr. Sir]

Thank you! I thought the log reference was particularly inspired.

 

[Frans]

I thought about this a bit more Ed.

It's actually real simple.

I would say your a hack if you gleefully hack the sh--t out of a tree just to make a fast buck.

Hows that?

 

[stig]

Thank you! I thought the log reference was particularly inspired.

I thought it went something like: "the beam that is in thy own eye" ?

Different translation, maybe.

 

[stig]

True pollarding requires annual or bi-annual pruning to achieve, and it has a discipline that must be adhered to precisely.

jomoco

True, but sometimes you don't start the pollarding process until the tree is mature.
Then you top it and follow up with pollarding for ever after.

I'll illustrate this with some photos of some splendid "candelabrum" linden trees at a nearby church, when I get a chance.

Any american, seeing a linden topped like that, would cry: HACK!!

But we have other traditions over here, without that making us less skilled.

If I may quote from Gerry Beranek's first post in this thread:" All the scientific facts aside most tree work follow geographic lines of what is acceptable or unacceptable".

Wise words indeed!

Question:

Is the Tilia species normally called Linden or Lime tree in the US?

 

[Burnham]

Linden, as best I seem to recall.

 

[Mr. Sir]

Question:

Is the Tilia species normally called Linden or Lime tree in the US?

I don't recall seeing any in Florida, but when I worked in New Jersey they were known as Linden or some called them Basswood; a very common street and parking lot species in that area. I remember they smelled odd...

 

[jomoco]

True, but sometimes you don't start the pollarding process until the tree is mature.
Then you top it and follow up with pollarding for ever after.

I'll illustrate this with some photos of some splendid "candelabrum" linden trees at a nearby church, when I get a chance.

Any american, seeing a linden topped like that, would cry: HACK!!

But we have other traditions over here, without that making us less skilled.

If I may quote from Gerry Beranek's first post in this thread:" All the scientific facts aside most tree work follow geographic lines of what is acceptable or unacceptable".

Wise words indeed!

Question:

Is the Tilia species normally called Linden or Lime tree in the US?

Good stuff Stig.

I think true pollarding and topiary work makes good sense in high wind and storm areas, or even in a strictly aesthetic sense as art.

jomoco

 

[Treevet]

Mechanics and doctors are bad examples.

You see, tree 'health' is how we percieve it. Yet 'topping' a tree has very little adverse effects in the long term.

Cut a tree down to the ground, and in 50 years a fresh tree will have grown from the stump

Most of the condemnation of Hacks comes from percieved aesthetics, for deadwooding and thinning trees in the full knowledge that the works carried out are of NO benefit to the trees health whatsoever..

These 3 statements come from a lack of knowledge and understanding. The research is so available today on the internet there is no excuse for not seeking it if for no other reason than to prove yourself correct, and the opposite would happen and you may have, in Jerry's words, an epiphany.

Years ago this could be excused but not today.

 

[Treevet]

Pollarding is a process that should start when a tree is young and very dynamic. The mass to energy ratio is in favor of it then. The pollard heads have to be maintained on a regular basis.

When a tree is older and topped (not pollarded) even small amounts of living tissue removed will harm the tree. (Shigo. pg. 143, Tree Pruning)

 

[jomoco]

Pollarding is a process that should start when a tree is young and very dynamic. The mass to energy ratio is in favor of it then. The pollard heads have to be maintained on a regular basis.

When a tree is older and topped (not pollarded) even small amounts of living tissue removed will harm the tree. (Shigo. pg. 143, Tree Pruning)

They certainly have pollarding down to a fine art in europe, but I seldom see it done right here in America, though it may well be done in the US and I just haven't seen it yet.

Anyone got examples of good pollarding pics in American cities?

jomoco

 

[Treevet]

I would rather see a natural looking tree/branch than contrived architecture by someone that has arbitrarily decided what size they feel a tree should be limited to and severed it at that particular spot. Abbreviated form=unnatural IMO and unappealing.

Does provide some job security tho I suppose.

 

[stig]

I have had this exact discussion once at Treebuzz with Gerry B.
I think I managed to change his view of pollarding some.
Do you know the historical background of pollarding and coppicing trees?
A pollarded tree has nothing to do with:"contrived architecture".
I'll gladly explain later, but It's 6.03 AM here and I'm off to top some Lindens that are to be pollarded later.
I'm not kidding, that is todays agenda.
I'll not post pictures, they'd just freak you out. Much rather show some old pollarded trees. We have a long avenue nearby with 250 year old pollarded lindens, which is a good example of pollarding done right.

 

[Treevet]

Can't wait to hear your explanation that is contrary to my description.

Would love to see the before and after of your current topping project.

Tilia are all over my vicinity and they do just fine WITH TOPS thank you very much.

 

[Treevet]

Let me add a little analogy to my opinion...

You work and live in the city and vacation comes and you take your family out to a beautiful park in a very remote area. You are camping and you see a bear. You all are in awe of its natural and unaccustomed presence.

Then as he turns and walks back into the woods, you see something on the back of his ear, and it is a tag with the number 47 on it. Everyone looks at each other and thinks, "that ain't right".

 

[Thor's Hammer]

Sorry TreeVet, but your bullshit protector is stopping any different opinions entering your brain.

Keep up with the Shigo worship dude.

 

[DMc]

Not trying to interrupt another fruitless argument on "topping" vs "non-topping"; that is generally as productive as "what's the best climbing knot?" type of thread.

I hope I wasn't the cause of this because my comment to Thor was not focused on the topping portion of his comment but the "I don't give a damn" portion.

I so often hear from arborists frustrated that they are not as respected as other professionals in other industries. I believe this is part of the problem. You can't change the rules of what constitutes good tree work as it suits you. Saying the homeowner or landowner is always right is total bunk. We all know that not to be true. And if you allow a homeowner tell you how to trim a tree, what good is all your knowledge.

I'm not talking about achieving a specific goal which might require alternative choices, but the actual procedures involved to achieve those. Special circumstances may require special techniques. You must care and be proud of what you are accomplishing in order to achieve a high level of excellence regardless of what is required of you.

Dave

 

[Treevet]

Sorry TreeVet, but your bullshit protector is stopping any different opinions entering your brain.

Keep up with the Shigo worship dude.

you got it dude. I prefer basing what I do on research rather than old wive's tales. Keep hacking those trees up and you're eliminating a hole market for yourself out there that isn't just looking for tree garbage removal.

 

[Thor's Hammer]

Dont always believe everything I say

Why tell a boring a truth when you can make up an exciting lie?