Welders? Any welders on this site?

[Tree09]

Yes Cory, it's the exact same game. Only problem is that the engineers
have started to actually believe the bullshit, and have changed codes to adapt it. For example, most large diameter pipelines are now welded with a flux cored robot, inside a giant weld shack that is lowered onto the pipe to provide the necessary closed environment. It welds faster than i do yes. But the welding codes and requirements are actually less stringent than hand welding, because the robots can't do them. Yes hand stick welding downhill pipeline codes (which are surprisingly lenient) are too hard for a robot to weld to. When i was welding John Deere rops over 16 years ago, the engineers specified that all critical welds be made using pulse. However pulse is used to keep heat down, so what sense does that make? I took it the complete other way, turning the heat up so far and using the pulse setting to dial it back just enough i didn't blow a massive hole clean through it that i melted the board out of a Miller 400 welding on 1/4 tube to a 1/4 floor.

Pulsed mig has its place and the new high end machines do it very well. They can remove some of the operator experience level to run certain types of welds, and can make mig more versatile. The inverse is true with stick, inverters usually can't run cellulose rods for shit. They are finally getting close with the super high end ones, such as the pipe pro and Lincoln's cross country, but it's still a computer simulation of what an sa 200 can do. I've made a ton of welds with inverters, you sacrifice stick welding ability and durability for weight usually. When you get up to a xmt 300 or similar, the arc control knobs can actually flatten the volt amp curve enough to start to do work, but once again, it's nothing like an old torpedo or similar dc generator machine.

My point is this, with the limitations that i assume most here have, such as lack of experience, lack of time and teaching resources to properly learn, limited to 200 volts 50 amp power, lack of a completely enclosed shop, and the fact that repairs are as common as new fabrication, i can't possibly imagine a world where mig could be considered to be useful. Short circuit and low end globular metal transfer mig simply does not penetrate reliably, and even worse you can't tell by just looking at a weld. I ask anyone here with a mig setup on those power limitations to try this, weld up a fillet weld in both the flat, vertical, and overhead positions, and then do a root bend to show the penetration. Do some nick breaks. I will bet most here can't do it. 2 days messing around with a stick welder you could do that using 6011 tho, on a machine that cost 50 bucks off Craigslist.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Congratulations, Al!!! 50 years is a long time! What are you gonna do now? Just chill?

 

[pantheraba]

Thnks, Kyle. Great info that I'll re-read. I didn't understand some/lots of it but I did not glaze over either. I'll copy out the info and share it with my son who has a welder...he took one (several?) welding classes years ago when he was deciding what occupation to get into. He has fixed several items for us and now buys trailers, repairs them and flips them for side money.


I have my grandfather's old stick welder that I have saved for now..not sure what I am going to do with it. I'll post a pict later and get your opinion. Some of the wires are old, cracked and look awful. I don't know whether to scrap it or try to fix it. It is an old stick welder, I remember seeing him use it in the 50's...got a case of flash "blindness" while watching it from probably 40 yards away when I was about 5 years old. They kept saying don't watch that bright light..I HAD to!


Thanks for taking the time to post the info.

 

[cory]

Yeah, it takes talent to make highly technical writing be interesting reading.

The only welding I've done was 40 years ago in Oregon, I tried some stick on a spare piece of metal. Guess what, the rod got stuck immediately and I couldnt get the hang of it after 5 min practice

Mad respect for good welders.

My go-to welder has been doing it forever, learned from his father, both real artists. When he does it, it's done right the first time. He's smoked his whole life btw.

 

[flushcut]

So far so good with the Miller.

Good insight Kyle!

 

[Al Smith]

Congratulations, Al!!! 50 years is a long time! What are you gonna do now? Just chill?

Well 5 days into it I got up at 4 am,harassed people on the internet then split almost a cord of ash .Pulled a wind blown top out of the woods to my slash pile and cut it up--all before noon .The difference now besides working for myself instead of a coffee break it's a beer break .Not all that bad .Georgie Girl is in transit as I type so it's party time in about half an hour .--I may be old but I'm damned sure not dead .This old hound can still hunt .

 

[cory]

F'g awesome post!

 

[MasterBlaster]

Well 5 days into it I got up at 4 am,harassed people on the internet then split almost a cord of ash .Pulled a wind blown top out of the woods to my slash pile and cut it up--all before noon .The difference now besides working for myself instead of a coffee break it's a beer break .Not all that bad .Georgie Girl is in transit as I type so it's party time in about half an hour .--I may be old but I'm damned sure not dead .This old hound can still hunt .

Paste this into that other thread!

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Kyle, thanks for doing this. I have really only started making my own gorilla stick repair welds trying to learn and take on larger repair projects. My son learned some in school, so he'll be some help. Still looking for a used lincoln that will suit me needs. In heirited a gas set up. Need to learn some brazing. I used to silver solder copper all the time. But .... not the same seemingly or ive been too far removed from the knack. My older unsteady crampy hands arnt much help. But your posts are helping wrap my mind around it better.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Gorilla stick welding means it aint pretty, i have penetration, and i am a grinder, not a welder...

 

[flushcut]

Practice practice...

 

[treebilly]

Thank you Kyle. I’m still probably gonna end up with a nice mig but I know some repairs are out of my league. The good news on that is I have a retired iron worker as a friend. He was the welding instructor for their apprenticeship program. He said we will make time to teach me some. He also said he’ll leave the welder at his sons house and told me to practice just laying beads on scrap steel. Plenty of that laying around there. Our shop mechanic is getting a new service truck soon as well and his welder will be mounted in it. Says I’ll have access for practice as well. It’s a trade that I really think is good to know. Especially since the tree industry is not known for being gentle on equipment.

 

[Tree09]

I understand what I'm saying is gonna be very unpopular. The welding manufacturers have made these baby migs, which actually work just fine on sheet metal and stuff under 1/4 inch, and have basically said "Look it's ok you can't stick weld, these are better anyways, but they cost more..." And that's true if you plan on building non critical anything out of 2" square tube and 1/8" thick angle. But the reality is that after spending all of that money, you can't weld anything thick at all, or anything out of position. If you are limited by your shops power, and want to be able to repair structural members on a trailer without killing people, you have to accept physics and understand that a garage mig will not likely produce the weld that you need. I would rather have gorilla stick welds that actually work rather than pretty little mig welds that didn't fuse into the side at all.

If your shop has 100 amp service, then rather than buying a new inverter toddler mig, my advice would be buy a used transformer style industrial mig or stick machine from a welding supply, eBay, Craigslist, or an auction. If need be rig up a rotary phase converter, and get a three phase one. Then you will have a machine that will magically just work when you flip the switch, and will actually have the balls to actually penetrate and supply enough joules to the weld that you can weld properly. Just remember tho, that even in the flat position, your 7024 will weld circles around the mig until you get to about 300 amps. I'm not kidding, they lay metal down that fast, and it's probably even easier than mig because the rod is actually touching the plate, so you don't even have to learn to keep the distance from the contact tip perfect. They call it monkey rod for a reason. I have some 5/32 7028 (which is the low hydrogen version of 7024) and if i ever get some free time I'll make a video of how easy it is to run. And if you have to weld out of position, which a bunch of the welds that you will end up doing will be, a stick will provide more reliable and easier to obtain results. There's a reason that anywhere welds have to be made out of position, either dual shield, innershield for some ironworker applications, or stick welding is still the go to method. Go on any job site, and you will likely see everyone stick welding. They aren't doing that because it's fun, they're doing that because it's still the easiest and most reliable way to do it.

Also remember that your local community college will have a welding program, and will usually offer night classes. Maybe this winter take some, and learn to stick weld. Trust me, if i can do it, anyone can.

 

[Dave Shepard]

Could you please define toddler mig? Are you talking about the 110 volt stuff?

 

[Al Smith]

your 7024 will weld circles around the mig until you get to about 300 amps. I'm not kidding, they lay metal down that fast, /After I got out of high school I worked at what was one time,Baldwin -Lima -Hamilton at that time the builder of Lima cranes as a welder .It was not uncommon to burn a 50 pound box of 3/16 or 7/32 of "jet rod "in an 8 hour shift .

It takes a pretty good machine that the average home user might have to burn anything larger than 1/8" Jet rod .However using 7014 which has less iron powder flux you can still get higher deposit rates with some degree of all position rather than straight flat .

As for 7018 which is pretty much the gold standard on clean metal they do make an AC/DC variety that runs well on a buzz box like a Lincoln "tombstone ".You can get in 3/32 " size .Standard 7018 is Dc reverse polarity which most people don't own a DC machine.

 

[Burnham]

It's a mighty fine thing to have these pros here to school us...one older than dirt, one a young stud.

Good stuff, Al and Kyle.

 

[FireFighterZero]

It's always fun to discover the different knowledge bases.


I cant remember a time when someone here did not have at least a working knowledge about a subject.

 

[MasterBlaster]

We are a great Collective.

 

[FireFighterZero]

That ain't no joke!

 

[MasterBlaster]

We could use a lawyer... maybe an airline pilot.

 

[Tree09]

Al, that was kinda my point, that you need a very serious mig setup to even start to challenge a serious stick setup. Amp for amp, the stick will win in the versatility, position, penetration, and even speed until you get into the serious production mig machines and the associated power to boot. I think we are agreeing on everything. I personally haven't run the ac 7018 a whole bunch, but as you know and i said earlier, unless you burn the whole can when you first open it (i thought I've seen the ac stuff not even hermetically packaged?) it no longer is low hydrogen unless it's stored in an oven, so why limit yourself to that of the ac stuff that runs marginally at best? And while a tombstone will only run 1/8" jetrod with 100% duty cycle, isn't that still better than a 200 amp mig, that even with .030 wire will barely be leaving short circuit transfer?

If someone disagrees with what I'm saying, please weld some coupons in the flat, vertical, and overhead position, and then cut straps and do some bend testing and some nick breaks (where you cut a little bit on each side in the middle of the weld to insure it breaks in the weld itself, then break it, if it's not perfect weld metal it will show). I would damn near bet a paycheck that there are only a handful of guys here that could pass. I'm not being an ass, out of position mig is actually very hard to do right, and having a garage machine damn near makes it impossible. If mig is only easy in the flat position, i have a very hard time justifying a more expensive, more costly to run, more dependant on atmospheric and surface cleanliness, more delicate, and in the end slower way to weld is the answer.

Stephen, as far as braze welding is concerned, the technique is much more similar to gas or tig welding than copper pipe brazing. With copper pipe, you heat it up will it about burns through, then you wipe the silver on, which is instantly wicked into the joint. With braze welding, you start with super clean metal, preheat, and then slowly dab the brazing rod to test it, much like normal solder. When the brazing rod starts to flow into the joint, you are hot enough, so adding more heat just makes it run everywhere. So you pull out, keeping the torch pointed in the direction of the braze to shield it from the atmosphere (very important because the heated metal rusts instantly if not protected by the co2 from the combustion of the torch, and dirty metal won't braze) and dab the brazing rod to form the bead. If it's wetting out too much, angle the tip more, and move out farther, always shielding the metal with the exhaust gases, and jam the braze rod in the joint to cool everything off. You should always try to be on the cold side, so that way you get the build-up you want, and it's always easier to add heat. Don't be afraid to do circles, where you bring the torch in close to add heat exactly where you want it, then pull out to remove heat and simply shield. I personally push the torch, and feed the wire in and out of the heat zone with my left hand much like tig welding or gas welding. I can pull it too, but pushing is more normal for me because I learned to tig first. I think pulling is supposed to be the correct technique. I like the bare brazing rod that you dip in the can of flux, rather than the pre fluxed stuff. The reason is that i can always add more flux, because the flux burns away first, so when you start another weld you are fighting to get flux, which is critical. The other trick i use is get a carpenters pencil, and draw a heavy line at the toes of the braze weld, as long as you aren't too heavy with your heat, the flux and therefore the weld will flow to them and stop . And just remember, the weld will flow to where the heat is. With both brazing and gas welding, you can use the flame itself to push metal around, so you can do that too. That's why the right sized tip is so important with these processes, out provides the right heat, and using the correct pressures, will allow the puddle to flow rather than be blown about. Maybe Al and perhaps Bob will weigh in, i wager they both have done more oxy welding and brazing than i. One more tip, if you are using braze rod or silver solder on copper plate, bust out the tig rig. You have to play the heat suck and build-up like al, but you can walk the cup and get perfect welds that way

 

[Al Smith]

In 1966 I operated some of the first of a series of micro wire inert gas welders used .These were used primarily on thinner steel such as 10 gauge and 7 gauge (1/8" ) plate steel .They were not used on critical joints such as crane booms .
Some of the heavy welds were done with what they called submerged arc which used about 70 thou wire with gas and powdered flux .These were so smooth it about looked like it was part of the plate steel if done right .
Processes have evolved over the years but as yet good old stick welding is the most versatile .

 

[Al Smith]

Brazing is really "hard soldering " not welding as such .Silver bearing metal is often used for things like refrigeration tubing because it can not only take the pressure but also a degree of shock on the joints .Lead/tin solder is not for these type of conditions however a product called Stay Brit 8 does work about as well and can be done with a turbo type torch rather than oxy-acetylene and is much easier in areas of limited space .
Old Harleys and bicycle frames at least at one time were assembled using socket fittings and brass alloy brazing and are extremely strong and resist forces that would shake a welded joint apart with the methods used during that time period .How it's done these days I haven't a clue .

 

[pantheraba]

So this is what I have from my grandfather's farm...wire insulation is kaput. Any hope to resurrect and use?

 

[lumberjack]

The leads (wire) are a long term consumable, not a big deal to change them out. I'd clean it up, stretch out the leads (or tape) them so they don't short and give it a test. If it checks out, spend the money on new leads and you're off to the races!