To gut or not to gut? Deadwood hinges

[pantheraba]

I felled this dead pine solo yesterday, about an 80 foot pine...it was pretty vertical, slight side lean. I put a re-directed pull line into the top 1/3 of tree...shot a line with APTA and choked the top. I used a 3:1 hoist to put a good pull on the top...hoped to break the top out of it (there were some other deader pines down the lay from this tree...was concerned about a domino effect that would hit the neighbor's fence...managed to miss the domino trees). No breakee so used that good pull to help the fell.

I wanted to be sure my bar could make a complete sweep towards the hinge (not in Denmark here, Stig) so I shaved off the side bark.

I also did a vertical bore from the back cut side to get a feel for where good wood started...it was about 3 inches in.

I gutted the hinge thinking I could do better pulling with my hoist line against two posts rather than a full width hinge. But once it was felled and I checked the hinge I saw that the right side of the hinge (from the back cut side) was more rotten than the left. Seems to me that gutting my hinge sacrificed some good wood in the center that might have been important.

It did not cause a problem but...maybe it is better not to gut the hinge on a suspect hinge?

Note: that red ABR ULTRA RIGGING BLOCK 5/8" SLING is not from TreeStuff...it LOOKS like it is. My friend, Luke, good friend of my son, Alex, has been working with us some to learn tree work. He borrowed my Toss wands awhile back to practice splicing...and has borrowed some gear from me (he is one of the three people that I will let borrow my stuff)..and has started cat rescues, too...I recently had some cat rescues that I could not go to and he took over..and did a fine job.

To show his thanks to me he made that sling for me as a Christmas gift...how cool is that? This was my first use and it worked very well...THANKS, LUKE!

(he lurks here...he will eventually chime in...)

 

[treebilly]

Gary I'm not the one to know the right answer but I wouldn't of gutted the hinge on that. With dead and suspected rot I want as much hinge as I can get. I really only do it when I'm questioning if I can reach through on a double cut or if the log is suspected to have some value ( the guy that buys are logs worries about fiber pull).

 

[pantheraba]

With dead and suspected rot I want as much hinge as I can get. I really only do it when I'm questioning if I can reach through on a double cut or if the log is suspected to have some value ( the guy that buys are logs worries about fiber pull).

That is what I am thinking as I armchair quarterback myself ex posto facto....I am thinking no gutting on deadwood.

 

[Reddog]

I wouldn't of gutted the hinge on that. With dead and suspected rot I want as much hinge as I can get.

This

 

[sawman]

nice sling!!
nobody uses my climbing gear

 

[flushcut]

Personally I like to leave as much wood in the hinge as possible with dead trees.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Ditto... no gut the crispy dead.. Recent dead pine, I will on a stripped spar I have to pull over.. Just makes the pull easier.
You did a good job of it though Gary. Nice lay...
Just watch them spring poles when you are working the log.

 

[pantheraba]

Thanks, Stephen...I realized I kinda screwed the pooch once I got it down. Full hinges on dead or suspects from now on.

10-4 on spring poles...several small ones I experimented with. I am gonna read Jerry's section on spring poles again...lots of energy stored in even the little ones.

I don't often get to dump trees whole...still learning as I go.

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

I'd go full gap, rather than open face. I'd reserve gutting it for if it was hard to pull over. Sometimes the heart wood is all you have. Seems pine has more sap wood rot, maybe.


We called it 'tickling the face'. Use the lower corner of the nose in the face cut to do some gutting, after the back-cut is in, as needed.

I'll also cut the center of the hinge from the side of the back cut, if I have a bunch of wedges in the rear.

 

[woodworkingboy]

I pull a lot of dead trees, and I figure that with one that you want the holding wood not to break before required direction is achieved, the most hinge wood possible is best. Gary, what are you pulling with accented by the advantage set up? If you don't have the power to get a tree over against it's lean with a full hinge, it seems like gutting could be a remedy. The cut a little pull a little is sure a good method when you don't have pulling speed, gone from apprehension to relief with it many times.

 

[sotc]

Sean nailed my thoughts. Depends on the tree. That tree had a rotten corner which you could've seen in the face cut. The white wood is your solid wood, you cut most of that out when you gutted it. A tree of that size i expect you can get good leverage with your throwline, no need to gut it if your pull line is set up reasonably high. No hard fast rules in falling...

 

[pantheraba]

gone from apprehension to relief with it many times

Good description, Jay. I pulled that one with a 3:1 hoist. I can get a pretty substantial pull but not a fast pull. I did what you said...cut some, pulled, cut a little more.

Willie, you are right...when I gutted that hinge I compromised my best holding wood. Looking back, my hoist had plenty of pull to pull the tree to the lay...I think it would have handled the full hinge just fine. Lesson learned on this one.

I figured I'd post a potential screw up that worked out OK with the idea that somebody else might not do the same thing.

 

[murphy4trees]

Nice to share and good to think about...
I've noticed that the tallest hinge fibers on dead red oak seem to be in the middle of the hinge, indicating more strength in the heart. That would logically mean that the hinge should have more holding ability with those fibers in tact. If you have a back leaner you might need to thin the hinge out or plunge the center, but either way more force on the pull line is the right answer. wratcheting multiple pull lines, redirects to the street so you can put a truck on it etc.... did I mention I hate pulling by hand.. almost never do it.

norway maples seem to be the opposite.. the centers can get punky quickly, even in apparently healthy trees... usually you can see that in the notch cut. And in general I'd say you are better off leaving the hinge fibers in the center of the tree on dead trees. deep notches can help in that regard..

 

[pantheraba]

And in general I'd say you are better off leaving the hinge fibers in the center of the tree on dead trees. deep notches can help in that regard..

Good input...thanks. Now....How do deep notches help? Do you mean a deep notch would basically use the good wood in the center of the tree as the hinge?

Rather than the customary 1/3 depth hinge? I guess that would also "saw some lean into the tree".

 

[HolmenTree]

Gary, you shaved off alot more then just the bark. Sapwood in dead pine still offers very strong outer hinge wood, the wider the hinge the better for a more stable pedestal.
That was a much greater defect then gutting the hinge.

 

[HolmenTree]

Looking closer at your pics the rotted side of the hinge was on the opposite side of the side lean . But you did put a tapered hinge in with your back cut which probably helped from losing it sideways with the extra fibre.

The only trees I gut the hinge on to ease felling tension is DED elm. And I do it through the facecut.
If my bar is too short for a oversized live tree then I bore through the centre of a 90 degree open facecut and fan the cut inside the back cut wood.

 

[gf beranek]

Aside from the constructive criticisms I must say, Gary, your skill at lining up your cuts is getting better all the time.

Now, had your pine been a head leaner boring the hinge like you did probably would have had a more useful place. Thanks for sharing!

 

[candoarms]

I was attempting to explain a situation like this one to my son-in-law. Dead wood doesn't bend much before breaking. I prefer to leave a full-width and somewhat narrow hinge. In many cases the hinge on dead wood will fail prior to the notch closing.

Joel

 

[pantheraba]

Holmen...good input...thanks.

Jerry...10-4 on gutting a head leaner...thanks for commenting.

Joel...noted on deadwood hinge failing before notch closure and "somewhat narrow hinge". Get you SIL to read this thread...may save you some 'splaining. Some good folks offering good insights.

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

I wouldn't go with a narrow hinge on compromised wood.

 

[pantheraba]

Maybe a thicker hinge and cut, pull, cut, pull until it breaks over the hinge? (if working it solo)

Or if you have a groundie pulling (rope or vehicle) slowly apply pull as you saw the hinge down towards the face? (this is assuming no back lean)

 

[squisher]

Pull trees are where the comm units shine. No more hollering and guessing just precise instructions from the cutter to the puller.

 

[HolmenTree]

On a head leaner green or dry hinge fibre will hold longer if the back cut is bore cut to set up the hinge thickness and lastly cutting the strap wood on the release........versus back cutting straight in
Of course a 90 degree open face cut is recommended.

Number 1 hazard is heavy side lean or even moderate side lean in dead wood. Some of you may remember my guy line posts.
With back lean on a hazard tree it's best to pretension the pull line before starting your face cut. I almost always use my truck with redirects ,sometimes with as much as 300 feet or more of pull line.
All this can be done solo to get the tree on the ground.

 

[squisher]

The side guy works like a hot damn that's for sure!

 

[HolmenTree]

The side guy works like a hot damn that's for sure!

Yes thanks to the Big Shot, multiple ropes, redirect pulleys and prusiks I enjoy setting up a guy line.
I can set up a 90 degree to lay anchor anywhere to make it work.
The only right thing to do felling sideleaners in residential environments.