To gut or not to gut? Deadwood hinges

[candoarms]

From my own experience.......which may be wrong.......I've found that the narrow hinge on dead wood remains intact longer than a wider hinge does. Though the narrow hinge is certainly not as strong, it doesn't break as soon.

On a side leaner, I leave the hinge wider on the side opposite of the lean. This creates a hinge with a wedge shape: thicker on the side opposite of the lean; narrower on the lean-to side.

Joel

 

[HolmenTree]

Yes a thicker hinge can break off whole rather then by the layers of grain or worse...... barber chair.
Tapered hinges can work good on short green trees and hold the side lean longer to the lay.
But not always reliable in a urban setting where you require zero damage control

 

[squisher]

Zero damage control? Sounds reckless.

 

[pantheraba]

hahaha, Squishy...and your avatar looks like, "Damage control....what's that???!

 

[HolmenTree]

I thought it sounded good.

 

[pantheraba]

I thought it sounded good.

 

[Jed]

What these guys have already said Gary. For What It's Worth... I've never gutted a hinge in my life... Tickled the tummy a bit from the front as Sean explained, a handful of times, but that's it.

OH MAN!!! I just saw that post of yours when I hit send!!! Hilarious... That's me more than half the time.

 

[Burnham]

Never gutted a hinge, Jed??? Amazing. Perhaps one of the most useful techniques in a fallers toolbox, imo. Many different applications, that can help accomplish many desired outcomes.

I'd only reiterate the point made many posts back, Gary...that you should have seen the condition of the hinge wood once you removed the face cut wedge. That should have waved you off from the gutting...unless you could gut to leave the same amount of solid wood on the good and the bad side less the outer rot. If that is doable, and there is enough strong meat in the sides of the hinge afterwards, then gutting is the proper technique, in my opinion. It makes for an easy pull, no worries about weak top breakout and attendant risks to the faller below.

It all comes back to reading the condition of the wood at the felling cut, all the feedback the tree gives you. Take a few moments and look, understand what you are seeing, and make your plan going forward based on that.

 

[pantheraba]

And that is what I got out of Willie's post. If I had taken time to study the condition of the wood in the face cut...and thought about the implications of what I saw...that should have told me not to gut the hinge.

What you say is very true, too...I was concerned that if the top broke out of the tree as I pulled it that the remaining spar could go over the wrong way as it rebounded from the breakout...towards the house. That was my original thinking to gut the hinge...to make pulling the tree over easier. But by not taking time to study the condition of the hinge wood at the face cut I could have created another problem entirely.

Seems to me that if I smoked I should have lit up a stogie right after the face cut -- that would be the perfect time to light one up and take a moment to reflect on the next step.

Thanks for the input, B.

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

When cutting questionable trees, if you would normally go for a 1/3 depth face, stop at 1/6 and have a look inside. Evaluate, go from there.

 

[Burnham]

Oh man, Gary my friend...it's easy to sit here on my sofa and talk about taking time and considering, and making a plan based on all that wise reflection. Hard to do in the heat of the moment, I well know. Took me years, it not decades really, to slow it down and be able to do what I've so blithely advised.

 

[murphy4trees]

Maybe a thicker hinge and cut, pull, cut, pull until it breaks over the hinge?

Or if you have a groundie pulling (rope or vehicle) slowly apply pull as you saw the hinge down towards the face? (this is assuming no back lean)

I don't normally go for cut, pull, cut, pull... and almost never (only on heavy back leaners) when pulling with equipment..
Know what pull and cut is needed to get the tree to the lay... cut notch and pretension pull line (or vice versa for back leaners) create hinge with standard back cut or bore and back release, walk away and call for the pull. This is where pulling with equipment is so helpful.... learning to plan your hinge is a skill that takes some time and desire..

Its a great comfort to be away from the stump in many scenarios that involve big nasty dead trees...

 

[woodworkingboy]

I'm with Willard on trying to stand up a back leaning tree asap before putting saw to wood. The sooner you can get the tree leaning in the right direction with still wood that can me cut, the more it seems that success is insured. With a slow pulling implement, watching the top is enhanced by the ability to pull more as a sign of making progres.

 

[HolmenTree]

Good comments Jay. Standing up a back leaner I only do on a live tree though, unless it's a DED elm.
In Gary's dead pine situation a pretensioned pull line would need to be done with the utmost care with a good ear. He'd definitely want to be doing the tensioning safely away from the perimeter of the tree.

Pretensioning back leaners that I've done most always take a bore backcut to set up the hinge. Leave a strap and with a wedge in in the kerf for backup. Depending on the tree and how much the tree is pretensioned, when cutting the strap the tree will fall to lay. But a few times the wedge will need to be driven, other times if I need momentum pulling with my truck I will make a shallow cut as thick as the strap about 6 inches below the undercut were the strap is.
Go to my truck and pull breaking out the strap and the tree is then on the ground.

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

When pretensioning, be careful not to split trees due to too much force on too thick a hinge.

 

[HolmenTree]

Spruce and pine are easily barber chaired.....takes a little practice to get the thickness just right.
Doesn't matter if you're pretensioning a pull line....that's a controlled cutting procedure.
Learning proper hinge thickness is something you may learn from "I Made A Huge Mistake!!"

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

I don't normally go for cut, pull, cut, pull... and almost never (only on heavy back leaners) when pulling with equipment..
Know what pull and cut is needed to get the tree to the lay... cut notch and pretension pull line (or vice versa for back leaners) create hinge with standard back cut or bore and back release, walk away and call for the pull. This is where pulling with equipment is so helpful.... learning to plan your hinge is a skill that takes some time and desire..

Its a great comfort to be away from the stump in many scenarios that involve big nasty dead trees...

I agree with this.


I'm happy if the backcut kerf just stays open, using wedges and a pull line. You know you arent' likely to split it, if the tree remains where it always has been, mostly. Some pretensioning, but not much. You should have a heck of a lever when using a rope. I expect the the bent, dead fibers will hold less side lean than fibers in their original position, for a longer time. When the hinge is set, start pulling, evaluate.

If its just wedging over, I'll drive many wedges tight to spread out the compression, and keep it from sitting down/ back at all.

Some people use too few wedges in my opinion. If its compromised wood, I spread the weight of the tree over many wedges. Healthy, solid green trees are different.

If I'm cutting a really hollow tree, I will do the same to use a lot of wedges, as the weight becomes more concentrated
on less square inches of supporting hinge

 

[Peter]

I never gut the hinge on a hollow tree.

 

[Mick!]

I never gut the hinge on a hollow tree.

I see what you did there.

 

[woodworkingboy]

Willard, that's really interesting about putting in a kerf below the back cut to help the split out of the strap when pulling with your vehicle.

One thing is also getting to know your pullers like with specific tree species when pre-tensioning. We normally pull Pines here, killed by bugs or live ones. Unless it's a particularly small tree, a 3/4 ton puller isn't going to break a tree by pulling until the load maximises the amount that you can pull. With a one and a half - two ton puller, there is the possibility. I know that pulling with a vehicle has it's advantages, but with the slow pullers like a Tirfor, you can get pretty fine with them to convince the tree to move forward. Two guys that know the routine together make a good team.

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

Jay, have you considered a capstan winch or Lewis Winch?

 

[HolmenTree]

Hey Sean how about mounting one of those big crab fishermen capstan winches alongside the chipper?
Watching those crab fisher shows on TV I was always impressed how fast and powerful those boat winchs were.

 

[sotc]

I never gut the hinge on a hollow tree.

I always do it. 2 methods, same result, interesting.

 

[woodworkingboy]

Sean, I've used the capstan to move logs up an incline, but never to pull a tree towards the lay. No experience with a Lewis type. Pulling a tree with a winch cost my bud and myself eight thousand bucks to repair damage. Take up was too slow to combat side drift from a big limb. I'm not keen on winches for pulling for that purpose. I was a fan until the error experience.

 

[Limbrat]

I've got a 120v one Jay I'm going to use to skin my next deer or hog. We used them in line work to lift transformers in back lot climbing situations. Not as fast as those on the boats of course. I've threatened to use it on trees where lifting was necessary but haven't yet.