Tieing in While Blocking Down

[Burnham]

I see you bought the large size whats the advantage of that over the next size smaller?

Nothing of major significance...in fact, at the time I got mine several years ago (about 2000) there was only the larger rescue size being made.

Probably the main advantage for me is that I frequently rappel on a doubled rope and that fits, runs, and locks in the large RQ3 much better than the smaller one. The ears are too small to carry the doubled rope on the smaller one.

If you only use it on a single line, the smaller one should be perfectly acceptable, even better since it would be less bulk to carry.

Edit: I see that the smaller unit does not meet the minimum breaking strength to satisfy ANSI or the Forest Service life support equipment standard. That's a shame. 13 kN is mighty low. I retract my statement above about there being "nothing of major significance".

 

[Frans]

One point I have about the RQ3.

When attaching a figure eight, you have to take the figure eight off the rope to feed the rope properly.
Once when doing this my hands were so tired and stiff that I dropped it.

With the RQ3, it seems like you can feed the bight of the rope through the big hole and then flip it around the ears. As long as you are backed up, you could then descend safely.

What do you think about that?

 

[Burnham]

No way would I try that, Frans. It would be too easy to loose the wrap on the ears...then you are in freefall (that is if you are rappeling on the 8 exclusively, rather than as a brake added to your friction hitch climbing/descending system).

To avoid the fumblies when rigging an 8, clip it to your harness with a biner through the big hole...you can rig it on the rope, then reattach it properly.

Edit: I see you did specify being backed up, Frans. I suppose it would work, but I would be uncomfortable doing so.

In addition, you'd loose the advantages the RQ3 offers.

 

[Koa Man]

I have cut down a couple hundred spars [lots of palms included]. I never used a quick descent setup, other than my climbing line set below my lanyard. I ALWAYS make sure the laynard is below where I am cutting. If I cannot reach around and feel where it is, I place my hand at the cut level and ask the ground man if the laynard is below my hand and by how much. My ground men are also climbers.

 

[Frans]

Burnham I like you solution. Funny I have never tried to first attach the figure 8 through the big hole...
Thanks for the tip.

Wesley, having your groundie check the level of your flip line before making that cut is essential.

I have put jobs off if I dont have a good groundie working that day...

 

[Ax-Man]

I am not a big fan of the figure eight myself, but that is beside the point.

Can you really get down a tree that much faster using an eight verses a hitch?? I am problay missing something here. I just don't see the advantage to using one to desend from a spar.

 

[Tom_Scheller]

Can you really get down a tree that much faster using an eight verses a hitch?? I am problay missing something here. I just don't see the advantage to using one to desend from a spar.

I use an Icicle Hitch and it will lock solid on a single line. Without an 8 I'd have to walk down on my spikes, which is certainly practical and easier if I'm blocking smallish chunks.

TS

 

[Ax-Man]

Most hitches will lock down on a single line. A vt won't, at least for me it doesn't, but it not as fluid and definately more grabby on a single compared to a DbRT. The older hitches like the Blakes or the Tautline might be a better choice for a single line decent. I dunno. I used to use a Blakes as second tie hitch before I went VT. It has been so long ago I really can't remember how that hitch reacted on a singleline. I will have to give a retest some time.

We have discussed many techniques in this thread. These are just my thoughts.

Experience and many years of cutting down spars goes a long way toward being safe while chunking down a spar. Knowing what your doing and how your going to do it and keeping your mind focused on the cutting is probaly better than any gear set-up. I know this ground has been covered earlier in the thread and I do agree with it.

The technique of choking the biner around the spar will probaly suffice for most average everday type removals where a 16 to 20 in. saw will most likely get the spar down to a safe manageable piece to be felled. The second tie in for this type of removal serves more for fall protection in case you slip or your spurs kick out while moving around on the spar. Smaller saws are much easier to manuver and control so your chances of getting cut with a smaller saw aren't as great as they would be using a bigger one.

If the level of difficulty increases when doing a removal such as using a bigger saw in the 24 to 36 in range to cut bigger chunks or blocking wood down to avoid obsticles a line has been crossed to me. When you have to go this route to get a tree down to a safe level so it can be felled a different method for the second tie should be employed as the risk from getting hurt also increases. The simple choke the biner with a single hitch just might not not be enough it if an emergency desent is needed. An alternate method like the ones shown and discussed might make a difference between getting down quickly and easily compared to being stuck and bleeding on a spar.

The two comments that really stuck in my mind in this thread were the ones made by TreeTX and Wiley about the absence of a second climber on the job to do a rescue and the ability of the groundie to lower the climber down to the ground. Having a lowering system that the groundie can use makes sense if you doing a big potentially dangerious removal. The ground guy could probaly get you down faster and easier than you could on your own if you got banged up pretty good from a cut that has gone wrong.

I am sure we have all seen the vid of that Aussie dude who got slammed pretty good while roping that Pine top back onto itself. I am sure he would have benifitted from a lowering system that the goundie could have employed to get him down. He didn't look like he was in any shape to get himself down.

 

[Burnham]

If the climber is copesetic enough to release his lanyard, a groundie can lower an injured climber whose second tie in is an 8 on either a choked single line or on a doubled line through the adjustable friction saver. It take very little effort to control the brakeing function by administering downward pressure on the end of the rope(s) at ground level.

Just a thought.

 

[brendonv]

Cool thread.

Funny some of you mention another climber on the job to help rescue.

Where do ya'll find a climber that'll drag brush?

 

[lumberjack]

Certainly not in CT from what I've seen. Buncha lazy gits up there.

 

[brendonv]

 

[lumberjack]

I did see some decent climbers while I was there though, some that would drag brush, but sadly all had flown in for the Trade show.

 

[Ax-Man]

If the climber is copesetic enough to release his lanyard, a groundie can lower an injured climber whose second tie in is an 8 on either a choked single line or on a doubled line through the adjustable friction saver. It take very little effort to control the brakeing function by administering downward pressure on the end of the rope(s) at ground level.

Just a thought.

Good point Burnham

 

[Koa Man]

A climber who doesn't want to drag brush would not be working for me. If I am the boss and can climb and drag brush, then my employee better damn be willing to do what I do. The only time I DO NOT expect a climber to do ground work is I hire a contract climber. But in that case, all I am hiring him for is to get the tree on the ground safely and without breaking stuff, then he can go home. We call that "uku pau" in Hawaiian. You get the agreed upon price for the agreed upon work no matter how quickly you get the job done.

 

[squisher]

Ax-man excellent post, couldn't agree more at a certain size/point the stakes increase and that needs to be accounted for.

One thing I've wondered about is if you were needing to decend on a traditional hitch used in a SRT instead of Dbrt, what do you guys out there think about the heat/friction created vs the length of decent? Safe or deadly? In this day and age, does it depend on the types of ropes/hitch material used? Just a thought.

 

[MasterBlaster]

"uku pau" is my middle name!

 

[Mangoes]

Why don't hitches work well for SRT?

In a DdRT system the hitch bears only 50% of the load. And 2x the amount of rope needed passes through the hitch. In SRT the hitch must bear 100% of the load, which they do poorly at best. And 1x the amount of rope needed has to pass through the hitch, meaning when you start to go fast you go really fast.

All of the sytems have their pros and cons, our policy..... on a spar? Must have an escape route (we all do when felling). The escape must be operable with one hand. Which shouldn't be an issue because it is physically impossible to cut your left arm/hand with a chainsaw if it is in the 'drivers seat'.

 

[Burnham]

Ax-man excellent post, couldn't agree more at a certain size/point the stakes increase and that needs to be accounted for.

One thing I've wondered about is if you were needing to decend on a traditional hitch used in a SRT instead of Dbrt, what do you guys out there think about the heat/friction created vs the length of decent? Safe or deadly? In this day and age, does it depend on the types of ropes/hitch material used? Just a thought.

Why don't hitches work well for SRT?

In a DdRT system the hitch bears only 50% of the load. And 2x the amount of rope needed passes through the hitch. In SRT the hitch must bear 100% of the load, which they do poorly at best. And 1x the amount of rope needed has to pass through the hitch, meaning when you start to go fast you go really fast.

All of the sytems have their pros and cons, our policy..... on a spar? Must have an escape route (we all do when felling). The escape must be operable with one hand. Which shouldn't be an issue because it is physically impossible to cut your left arm/hand with a chainsaw if it is in the 'drivers seat'.

It's a fool's errand, in my opinion, to expect any friction hitch to provide a safe rappel on single rope. As I have said before, one of two things will happen, maybe not every time, but in a high enough percentage to render the technique untenable. The greater the distance, the greater the likelyhood of failure.

Either the hitch will bind up tight and the climber will be stuck in place, or the hitch will begin soften and melt and the climber will loose control of the rappel and fall.

It is just that simple, people. You need to come up with a different escape plan, if you decide you need one.