Tieing in While Blocking Down

[brendonv]

Your VT first, then the tail of the line into a munter, or an eight..

All attatched to the same spot on your saddle, like-VT in front, then the Munter behind it?

I think I got it.

 

[lumberjack]

Nay, the munter would be on a leg strap or something lower than the bridge so it would take the weight.

It is possible, I figure, to mount it all together, but it's certainly not how I'd do it.

 

[Blinky]

I put it on my right side D-ring.

 

[MasterBlaster]

What if someone had to come up and get you down Butch??? Your a big guy it would be much easier to get you down on an escape line that it would to try and unclip you and then have to try and clip you onto a rescuer's harness.

Then THEY would rig the escape line. Either off my climbing rope or their climbing rope, and use a knife to cut me away.

 

[wiley_p]

Butch, I am suprised. Then you are relying on THEM to rescue you. An already elevated situation has now had a "resucuer" added in. Funny when the heartrate gets above 120 simple motor skills go out the window. Why would you be reluctant to have another measure of self rescue at Your disposal. Remember, THEY is usually someone who you work with, they may even like you, are you going to rely on the fact that they can stay calm while they are climbing to you as fast as they can? While they are ascending through the curtain of blood that could be pouring out of your body, do trust completely that they will be able to focus on the task at hand while you are groaning in agony? There is nothing wrong with having a plan or two, nor is there anything wrong with training.

 

[lumberjack]

I'm not sure about for Butch, but for myself there isn't anyone I've met within 3 hours of here I'd remotely be comfortable with to take a knife anywhere near my lines unless I was guiding Daniel in what to do.

I'd trust Gary (Panther) but by then I'd be pushing daisies.

If a lift could get to me then I would be more comfortable with someone else rescuing me.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Butch, I am suprised. Then you are relying on THEM to rescue you. An already elevated situation has now had a "resucuer" added in. Funny when the heartrate gets above 120 simple motor skills go out the window. Why would you be reluctant to have another measure of self rescue at Your disposal. Remember, THEY is usually someone who you work with, they may even like you, are you going to rely on the fact that they can stay calm while they are climbing to you as fast as they can? While they are ascending through the curtain of blood that could be pouring out of your body, do trust completely that they will be able to focus on the task at hand while you are groaning in agony? There is nothing wrong with having a plan or two, nor is there anything wrong with training.

I was assuming I was unconcious.

 

[treetx]

Great, the mental mastubation that is AR.

In reality, for most of us, when we go into that tree, we are alone. There is no 2nd climber and if that 2nd climber was good enough to AR, they would be on the dang spar....

Plan for success, not failure. Use your excellent judgement so you don't have to use your excellent climbing skills.

I love the RG for this application but all to often a waste imo. Just choke your climbing line around the spar and get those pieces to the ground.

 

[brendonv]

Good thread.

I threw a line over my balcony today , and tried descending single line on my VT. It seems it's do-able, and doesn't require any gizmo's which is good.

I guess I'll just choke it off with a running bowline and go to town.

 

[Burnham]

Good thread.

I threw a line over my balcony today , and tried descending single line on my VT. It seems it's do-able, and doesn't require any gizmo's which is good.

I guess I'll just choke it off with a running bowline and go to town.

Lots of people have tried lots of friction hitches on single line, Brendon. I think you'll find one of two things happens pretty quickly...either the hitch binds up solid, or it begins to run free...it self-lubricates as it softens and melts. I have seen both happen...the latter was particularly scary .

Neither is good, of course.

If you are convinced that you need bail-out capability, better to go with the 8, backed up by a friction hitch binered to the leg strap on your brake hand side. You can rappel with one hand by gripping the hitch in your hand and simultaneously applying brakeing to the 8 and keeping the hitch moving. If you let go, the hitch applies plenty of brake to the 8 to stop you, but is easy to get going again.

 

[Bounce]

I always figured the reason to have a 2nd tie-in (whether on a spar or not) is in case you cut your first. In my job here at Wesspur, I've talked to dozens of guys who've cut their flipline, many of whom have been doing this 20+ years. It always happens the same way: there's a little stub on the opposite side of the trunk they didn't see which was holding the flipline up into the path of the chain. Usually it's the end of a long day, they're tired, they're running the big saw with dogs in deep and hauling back on the handle as hard as they can to get the job done asap. They notice a few skips if it was a steel core flipline but keep going anyway. If you're going to have a back up tie in, you can choose from either a climbing line or another flipline. Why not choose the one that lets you rappell to the ground if you have to? Also, most of us are already carrying a climbing line, so a 2nd flipline is just unneccesary weight.

I usually use a friction saver w/ prusik as my secondary tie-in on a spar because it means I can rappell down the spar, which is WAY faster than spur climbing down. While this hasn't yet saved my life, it sure does save a lot of time.

 

[Bounce]

I cinch my lifeline onto the spar with a biner.

I'm sure most everybody knows this, but carabiners aren't intended to be loaded this way. When you apply side pressure to the gate like that, there is a distinct possibility it could break if it got shock loaded (like when a flipline gets cut and this is what catches you). Swap it out for a clevis or a shackle though and this is a good method. Of course, a simple running bowline here instead eliminates the need for any hardware at all.

 

[squisher]

Yah that is what I do(with the biner) and am uncomfortable with for the reasons you mentioned. But I generally unclip my 2nd TIP when moving down the spar for the next chunk, and so being lazy this has become a bad technique I'm using. I have a adjustable FC it just seems cumbersome to set-up and then either work it down or remove it and set it up again for the next chunk. Probably lack of practice/experience is making it seem this way. And heh in my defense I've come along ways from never having a 2nd tie in or even a climbline so I'm trying.

Those of you who are setting up your systems so you can be lowered from the ground if need be just by unattatching your lanyard, could you explain that a little more, I'm sorry but I've had a hard time following how that would work while chunking down a spar. Do you just have your line anchored at the base of the tree with some type of friction device and are using your 2nd TIP as a SRT set-up, which you move down the tree with you as you go? So you run it through some type of a false crotch and then to your harness?

Great info guys even though I'm sure some of you are thinking this topic has been beat to death, I thank-you Brendon for starting this thread and bringing this topic up again.

Sorry if some of this stuff is basic to you guys, just trying to learn to improve my productivity and safety.

 

[Bounce]

Yah that is what I do(with the biner) and am uncomfortable with for the reasons you mentioned. But I generally unclip my 2nd TIP when moving down the spar for the next chunk, and so being lazy this has become a bad technique I'm using.

I have always thought it was easier to move a friction saver or running bowline down a spar than a line choked with a biner. I've tried the biner method and had nothing but problems with the biner getting snagged on rough bark and tiny little stubs or else getting way too loose and falling too far down. A friction saver is easy to lower because they're stiff and rigid just like a flipline (at least the Buckingham ones are). The running bowline is not as easy, but still easier than with a biner because you can just loosen it and shake it till it's where you want it.

 

[TheTreeSpyder]

When loading a krab; i think you should imagine it as an open hook; and only load inline down the back spine. The gate looks like similar strength metal (except wire gates); but their hinges are usually steel pins 1/10th or so the gauge; and then further more pulled perpendicularly/not inline/at leveraged angle. This Achilles Heel of the krab; then dictates the strength of this side of the 'chain' of events of strength. A threaded quick link has 2x the strength at the same size; becasue it can use both legs of support; whereas a hook or krab only has 1 real one. A string or wire across the mouth of a hook is called 'mousing' and can give more security and perhaps some strength against load shifting away from spine or towards cross loading. So i think of a krab as an open hook with fancy mousing.

A friction hitch down a single line(SRT) is different several ways than down a DdRT line. There is 2x the loading (but more elasticity) on the SRT system than DdRT with same load. But more than that; the dual line (one leg adjustable, one terminated of DdRT allows the loading to shift from half on the adjustable/dynamic slide side/leg to about all on the terminated/static leg. This then frees up the hitch to slide much more smoothly, under less loading frictions etc. The overhead friction of the support helping a lot too IMLHO.

Thus, 125# climber will not slide down at all/as smooth/ as safely on an SRT as a 300# climber will ride DdRT down. Even though it appears that the 300#'er has more loading (150#) on each leg than the 125# on the single leg of SRT.

 

[wiley_p]

This is a bit of a sidetrack, anyway, when a guy is on rappel you are moving down a line that is anchored at the top. When we use Drt and descend we are "lowering" the line is fixed to a belay at our saddle and moving thru the anchor overhead. Big difference. Have you heard anyone while working the hole on a rigging job talk about rappelling big wood down?

 

[Hobby Climber]

Once in position, I'll use a flip line as a positioning lanyard while cutting.

On the way down, I'll release pressure on the friction hitch and use the fig#8 as shown in the pic below. If something were to happen on the way down, I still have the FH (Blake's) as a backup to stop me.

This is also a great method while working on the way down! Less ware on the rope, easy to install.


HC

 

[Burnham]

I like this arrangement, the adjustable false crotch, aka ring and ring friction saver. You can set it up with your standard DdRT setup, of course. Works fine on a clear bole, so long as you keep it at least lightly loaded

Dang, can't get my pic to upload...I'll try again later.

OK, now that we can post pics, here it is.

 

[top hopper]

Heres a link to a recent article written by "Hollywood" aka TLHamel at TB.

http://www.msa-live.org/docs/Fall 07.pdf

 

[Hobby Climber]

Hey Mr. Burnham,

I kinda like that Fig.8 in your last pic. ...what is it called and where did you get it???

Please tell.

HC

 

[Burnham]

It's called a RQ3 Q-8, by Suretyman. It is so far superior to a standard rescue 8 w/ ears as to make the old style obsolete, imo.

Variable amount of friction available, on the fly without re-rigging, complete control of lock/unlock function with no loss of position on the rope at all.

http://www.msafire.com/catalog/product1238.html

 

[MasterBlaster]

That's a cool site, nice videos.

 

[Burnham]

You can also get the RQ3 from Rescue Source.

http://www.rescuesource.com/

 

[MasterBlaster]

Beranek had to show me how to put this on, I couldn't cypher it!

 

[fallguy1960]

I see you bought the large size whats the advantage of that over the next size smaller?