brendonv
Tree Hugger
From google pics, it seems like a half hitch is a "overhand". The marl is what I usually put before a bowline.
The Fishpole Technique
- Thread starter MasterBlaster
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gf beranek
Old Schooler
Butch, the overhand and half hitch are tied the same. Brendon, that be a marl all right. Although some people precede with a clove,, when negative blocking.
SkwerI
Treehouser
I dislike the clove because it rolls out, it's worthless without a stopper knot. Why tie two separate knots to do the job of one?
Of course I'm biased on the matter. I was talked into using a clove hitch one time about 20 years ago. The chunk rolled out and bounced off the edge of the roof, costing me a bit of money that I didn't have. I immediately decided that I'd never use it again and I haven't.
Of course I'm biased on the matter. I was talked into using a clove hitch one time about 20 years ago. The chunk rolled out and bounced off the edge of the roof, costing me a bit of money that I didn't have. I immediately decided that I'd never use it again and I haven't.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #54
Not the way I tie it. I must be doing something wrong?
No clove hitch ever, here. Running bowline every time.
gf beranek
Old Schooler
The clove is made with two marls. So it's not surprising it rolls out if the end is not fixed well enough. I've had it happen too.
Just tying the end off using a single loose half hitch is not good enough. When the load (a heavy one) lays into the line you can watch the works untie itself. Oops!
Even using two half hitches to secure the end the clove will only grab with one marl when the load first lays into it. A potential oops there.
The best fix, I found, is to tie the end off to the main with a bowline finish. It's very secure and it makes the clove grab the load evenly by both marls.
I know a lot of people don't use the clove for it's tendency to roll out. But once set correctly it grabs very well, and is less damaging to a line than a bowline in hard pulls.
Just tying the end off using a single loose half hitch is not good enough. When the load (a heavy one) lays into the line you can watch the works untie itself. Oops!
Even using two half hitches to secure the end the clove will only grab with one marl when the load first lays into it. A potential oops there.
The best fix, I found, is to tie the end off to the main with a bowline finish. It's very secure and it makes the clove grab the load evenly by both marls.
I know a lot of people don't use the clove for it's tendency to roll out. But once set correctly it grabs very well, and is less damaging to a line than a bowline in hard pulls.
SkwerI
Treehouser
But if you have to finish it off with a bowline then why bother tying it in the first place? I'll tie a running bowline and I'll take a second wrap around the log before tying if I need to reduce the load on the knot. Why tie two knots? We constantly strive to make every movement more efficient. Tying two separate knots and then waiting while the groundie unties two separate knots is not efficient.
You know what they say, "If you can't tie knots then tie lots".
You know what they say, "If you can't tie knots then tie lots".
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #57
If I think I'm gonna strain the bowline, I'll slap a half hitch in front of it, too.
gf beranek
Old Schooler
Brian, it's a bowline finish to trap the bitter end and takes the same amount, or less time to tie as two half hitches. When tying off the end with half hitches the side of the clove the hitches are tied on doesn't come tight until the main line pulls all the slack out.
But since you only used the knot one time and it failed then you probably can't visualize how the clove grabs differently when the end is tied off the two different ways.
I never broke a rope in a tree doing rigging work, but on the ground it's a different thing. Pulling logs and stumps I've broke a lot. And watched and learned why they break. And too how the knots grab and hold before they fail.
But since you only used the knot one time and it failed then you probably can't visualize how the clove grabs differently when the end is tied off the two different ways.
I never broke a rope in a tree doing rigging work, but on the ground it's a different thing. Pulling logs and stumps I've broke a lot. And watched and learned why they break. And too how the knots grab and hold before they fail.
sotc
Dormant hero!!
i learned to use the clove with 2 halfs. i watched those 2 half hitches hold the knot together so many times that i started using the cow hitch or timber hitch instead. mostly loopies and whoopie slings now
lumberjack
Young man on the go
Pics from a few years back:
Marl:
Half hitch:
Marl:
Half hitch:
T
TheTreeSpyder
Guest
If you slip a half hitch preceding off the end of the spar, it melts to nothing. But, if you slip a marl precedant off the ENd of a spar, it is an overhand. There is more deformity to line with marl, so i suspect it weaker(but more secure). i've used slings and kraps for catching pieces of puzzle if it comes apart, but then lock is the wieght of each piece, but in using marls or halfs the lock is the wieght below the piece and the piece i think.
lumberjack
Young man on the go
Not 100% but I'm nearly positive you're talking about a half hitch. If you roll a marl over, you're left with a marl. A half hitch rotated=free line w/o a hitch in the getup.
Also marl's are more time consuming to untie compared to a half hitch.
M
Mr. Sir
Guest
So it appears a marl is an overhand knot, while a half-hitch is simply a bight with half a twist. Yes?
lumberjack
Young man on the go
Yep.
M
Mr. Sir
Guest
I sometimes put a half hitch in front of a running bowline on a big piece or when blocking down a spar, but I always called it a marl. 
When I rig multiple limbs, I use overhand knots for extra security if there's a chance they'll get hung up on the way down. I had a half-hitch slide off the end of a limb once when it bounced off a small nub on the trunk.
When I rig multiple limbs, I use overhand knots for extra security if there's a chance they'll get hung up on the way down. I had a half-hitch slide off the end of a limb once when it bounced off a small nub on the trunk.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #66
I use overhand knots for that, also.
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gf beranek
Old Schooler
Lost in terminology again!
arborworks1
Treehouser
Nice group, Butch. Are your groundies running a porty or just wrapping the tree?
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #69
I'm pretty sure they were using a porty.
I saw this technique used a few weeks ago on a dead oak limb over a roof with no TIP directly over. What made it great for the situation is that the limb was small-ish, but oak is damned heavy & would be a javelin through a roof, even in smaller pieces.
gf beranek
Old Schooler
We're reversing the names, while at the same time talking about the same knots. No one is really wrong. It's one of the most common misunderstandings in the trade. "What's the name of this knot?" You will not get the same answer from everyone. And even the books on knots contradict each other on that. Least Ashley set it out straight from the beginning in his book on Knots that, names are not accurate descriptors and often are the cause more confusion and debates than they're worth, when it comes to talking about knots.
I do not disagree with any of the points anybody has made about the function and application of these knots.
T
TheTreeSpyder
Guest
Actually, to confuse it more, if you take that overhand that is a marl when force runs thru both ends, and curl one end under to form an eye around the other,a nd you pull the free end and it holds, it is called a half hitch also(and instead of force running thru it, has force only running to it like a Hitch proper). Keep spiralling that leg you bent uder around, and ya have a Timber Hitch. Half Hitch ppreceding gives a Killick. The main differance is that the Timber should be pulled perpendicualr to the spar it is mounted on, but is leveraged if pulled pairallell/inline with the spar. The Half Hitch preceding changes that error with the Killick (and gives dble. grab too), the mechanics are thus more proper, and the spar can be pulled straighter too.
Raising the Half Hitch on a load, farther away from the pulley under it does not decrease loading (CG of load is still same distance from pulley), but may decrease shock absorbtion(more line); that in turn could 'increase' loading (by not decreasing the shock with as much elastic absorbtion).
The names are just handles to pass the ideas around by, the real deal is in the mechanics and how to make it werk fer ya, and knot against ye.
Raising the Half Hitch on a load, farther away from the pulley under it does not decrease loading (CG of load is still same distance from pulley), but may decrease shock absorbtion(more line); that in turn could 'increase' loading (by not decreasing the shock with as much elastic absorbtion).
The names are just handles to pass the ideas around by, the real deal is in the mechanics and how to make it werk fer ya, and knot against ye.
For some reason, I always feel better after reading one of Ken's posts. Things just seem so much clearer, don't you all think?
But don't you think instead of wasting our time discussing something that is confusingly vague as a "constrictor" it would be much more clear to simply say:
Contineo caryophyllum 'Constrictor' --Clove hitch 'constrictor'
This knot would be in the kingdom of Funisae, family Nodusacea.
Now, doesn't that make everything perfectly clear?:
Dave
But don't you think instead of wasting our time discussing something that is confusingly vague as a "constrictor" it would be much more clear to simply say:
Contineo caryophyllum 'Constrictor' --Clove hitch 'constrictor'
This knot would be in the kingdom of Funisae, family Nodusacea.
Now, doesn't that make everything perfectly clear?
:Dave
gf beranek
Old Schooler
I think part of Ken is rubbing off on you, Dave.
