Someone Might Care... Who Knows?
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Cold Logging
TreeHouser
The extra work of chisel fileing may not be worth it for many situations. Like Holmen said long bars and clean wood. Or. A long bar on a small saw. . I always ran 20" bars on my 242 , 44 Husky, 024+026/260 Stihls and chisel filed or ground my chains. It really maxized the small fast powerheads for thinning.
SouthSoundTree-
TreeHouser
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Tucker943
Bamboo Plantation Owner
I'd simply like to learn it for nothing more then a useless feather to put in my cap. Basically just for grins. I bet with time I can get it. I have a very consistent hand and eye when it comes to filing. I've even graduated to not slicing my index finger wide open any more. I had that down to a science for awhile. Only on severely dulled chains. But I was good at it. Never slipped off course and sliced a different finger by accident. Always a nice clean stroke over the chain with the index finger. Even kept my slice depth and length consistent.
Of course, I could have been wiser and wore a glove like a proper grown up would but I always felt a glove made filing difficult.
Someone asked me to look at their chain they filed recently and critique it. I told them it was shitty. They asked how to do it better. Best I could come up with was "make each all your teeth look identically shitty and you'll be off to a good start". It is sort of true I think. Even if you are doing it wrong, make sure they're all the same type of wrong and from there it's just a matter of learning your angles.
Of course, I could have been wiser and wore a glove like a proper grown up would but I always felt a glove made filing difficult.
Someone asked me to look at their chain they filed recently and critique it. I told them it was shitty. They asked how to do it better. Best I could come up with was "make each all your teeth look identically shitty and you'll be off to a good start". It is sort of true I think. Even if you are doing it wrong, make sure they're all the same type of wrong and from there it's just a matter of learning your angles.
Magnus
TreeHouser
How do you define or compare sharpness in discussion?
I find easiest to refer to is new chain. To me a new chain is not very good. I file them to get more speed and durance.
Another example is low depth gauges. If you need to lower then right away you are likely compensating for not so sharp cutter.
Speed of cut is higher with high depth gauge and sharp tooth as the fiber curl up in tooth better and with low rider you get thick fibers that lower chain speed and create friction, vibrations and excessive wear.
I find easiest to refer to is new chain. To me a new chain is not very good. I file them to get more speed and durance.
Another example is low depth gauges. If you need to lower then right away you are likely compensating for not so sharp cutter.
Speed of cut is higher with high depth gauge and sharp tooth as the fiber curl up in tooth better and with low rider you get thick fibers that lower chain speed and create friction, vibrations and excessive wear.
Magnus
TreeHouser
Shape and angle mean very little, if it isn't sharp and can't cut.
Shape and angles is different to make it perform optimal in different wood. It is also depending on what type of cutter and power in saw (in relation to number of cutters).
Shape and angles is different to make it perform optimal in different wood. It is also depending on what type of cutter and power in saw (in relation to number of cutters).
Tucker943
Bamboo Plantation Owner
Yes I'm aware.
But the hardest part for a newbie is to be consistent in whatever they do. Making a perfect 30 degree angle on a tooth is useless to a newbie if the rest of the teeth are all different angles. You have to get them to learn to be consistent. From there they can master various angles for the type of cutting they do. You can put the wrong angle on a chain and still cut straight. Maybe not efficiently, but you will cut straight. Newbies like to make every tooth different especially one side of teeth versus the other, and then they get perplexed about why the saw is cutting a curve through the wood and jamming up half way through.
But the hardest part for a newbie is to be consistent in whatever they do. Making a perfect 30 degree angle on a tooth is useless to a newbie if the rest of the teeth are all different angles. You have to get them to learn to be consistent. From there they can master various angles for the type of cutting they do. You can put the wrong angle on a chain and still cut straight. Maybe not efficiently, but you will cut straight. Newbies like to make every tooth different especially one side of teeth versus the other, and then they get perplexed about why the saw is cutting a curve through the wood and jamming up half way through.
Magnus
TreeHouser
You can have different length on tooth and it still cut straight if depth gauge is the same and both sides sharp.
Magnus
TreeHouser
How do you define sharp chain?
Tucker943
Bamboo Plantation Owner
Let me ask you a question before I discuss any farther. Is it your intention to have an intellectual conversation while bearing in mind that I do make a living cutting wood, or is this going to be a round and round simply because it looks like an opportunity to battle with me?
Magnus
TreeHouser
I tried to have a serious discussion about something I do every day for a living, yes, but as most times it is not very easy here...
I enjoy filing and I bet I file more than you! I used to be full time logger to once.. Part time too..
I enjoy filing and I bet I file more than you! I used to be full time logger to once.. Part time too..
Cold Logging
TreeHouser
My most recent Madsen's catalogs have this all written down and make for a very good ( shop manual) . . Great can reading also.
Cold Logging
TreeHouser
Really true!! Getting someone to get every tooth the same is ime the hardest part. Then they can improve 1 part at a time and get consistent at it. Pretty soon they have all the parts consistent and they have reliable cutting chains.
Cold Logging
TreeHouser
Since dull, wore out files are half the problem with guys hand fileing. Some of them think a file should last as long as a chain does.I'm gonna give the cider vinegar a try.
Tucker943
Bamboo Plantation Owner
It works. I did it earlier this year when I came across about 40 dull and rusted files. Doesn't make them brand new, but it'll bring them back around to do a few more chains. No, files don't cost a fortune, but I'm not above saving a few bucks an trying something out. It did work though.
Tucker943
Bamboo Plantation Owner
Well clearly I am wrong about a beginner learning to be consistent.
Cold Logging
TreeHouser
A sharp chain isn't exactly the same as a good cutting chain. But any good cutting chain needs to be sharp. !
But for me, a sharp and good cutting chain is one that cuts the fastest with the least amount of effort on my saw handling. Meaning I don't have to pull like I'm in a tug o war or push at all on the saw. Whether I'm putting a big Humboldt face in a 4' dia western hemlock or cutting big limbs off old growth Sitka spruce. I can bore without being in fear for my life and buck 1 handed. And the chain will last at least 4 hours in clean timber.
Incidentally, I've used the exact same grind and depth gauge settings and the same powerheads cutting frozen green birch at-45° C as I have falling Sitka spruce at +50°F . . The chain was a little rougher in the hard frozen wood compared to thawed out soft wood and the falling dogs weren't needed. But the chain sure zoomed thru the cuts.
I've never put the time, effort or money into putting up the fastest chain in camp so it was always gratifying when a lot better fallers than I used my saw and commented on how good my chain cut.
Tucker943
Bamboo Plantation Owner
Define a sharp chain? One that eases through wood while making a consistent chip and not forcing the operator to over exert themself to control the saw and move it through wood.
Magnus
TreeHouser
The chips is a good indicator of how chain cut. If it is even sided, same thickness and loooong you have done a great job and it will cut fast with small effort.
I want them to cut with weight of saw only, never use more force than needed to guide saw thru cut. No sideway cutting, no vibration as that slow speed as well. I never need to touch depth gauges until it is about half filed.
Another good way to see how much power is wasted is to look at the surface cut.
If you want to know more and see what actually happens in a cut and in so understand better what goes on, is to cut in transparent plastic and stop in cut and have a look. This is a bit expensive for me as I do this quite often when tests are done so I cut a thin disc and stop in cut. I then support the saw so it doesn't move and gently break away the disc so I see cutters in action. Million dollar tip to learn a lot with small means.
I want them to cut with weight of saw only, never use more force than needed to guide saw thru cut. No sideway cutting, no vibration as that slow speed as well. I never need to touch depth gauges until it is about half filed.
Another good way to see how much power is wasted is to look at the surface cut.
If you want to know more and see what actually happens in a cut and in so understand better what goes on, is to cut in transparent plastic and stop in cut and have a look. This is a bit expensive for me as I do this quite often when tests are done so I cut a thin disc and stop in cut. I then support the saw so it doesn't move and gently break away the disc so I see cutters in action. Million dollar tip to learn a lot with small means.
Jed
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #145
Man Magnus...You Swedes are pretty serious about saw chain. Then again... Sounds like something I'd do.
The Oberg file that Coldlogger and I where talking about is known as the "Double Ender". There're cool because you don't need a handle, and all of the teeth are a straight 90 degrees across.
The Oberg file that Coldlogger and I where talking about is known as the "Double Ender". There're cool because you don't need a handle, and all of the teeth are a straight 90 degrees across.
Jed
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #146
Yeah, Tuck, You gotta give square filing a try. Today was the single funnest day I've ever had while earning money. Triangle filed square on a 32" 660. Dead, Bald Eagle nest Doug Fir, (Federal Permits) 150' by 42", on the ground, nothin broke, nobody hurt in about two hours. I'll bet I would have been another 20 mins. In the tree if I had gone round.
(I do file round almost every other time to help me with my top plate angles with the square files. Works a charm, even if 15 degree top plates are not too great on round.).
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
For me a sharp chain besides seeing it that way, is one where I can drag the flat part of my fingernail across the edge and it catches it, doesn't just slide across. For other cutting edges, easily shaving the hair on my forearm is a good determinant, where the hairs jump away.
i find with beginners that getting each cutter similar is a much greater problem for them than the initial difficulties of simply having their file remove steel up to an edge. They try to sharpen a chain and think that they have, but it is still dull, and can't see that with how the edge looks or feels.
i find with beginners that getting each cutter similar is a much greater problem for them than the initial difficulties of simply having their file remove steel up to an edge. They try to sharpen a chain and think that they have, but it is still dull, and can't see that with how the edge looks or feels.
Tucker943
Bamboo Plantation Owner
I think learning to file well is not something that is easily taught from one person to another. I believe time and experience hones the skill. Sure, you can show a person 100 times how its done. But that person has to take what you've shown and make it happen with their own hands. After awhile, it comes together for some guys. Usually not residential tree workers though. I do stand firm in that most of them suck right up until the day they retire. There's a few exceptions I'm sure. I'm eager to meet one of them.
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
Magnus, not easy to have a serious discussion about chainsaws here, seems like an odd thing to say. I thought we'd been having lhem for many years, could probably fill up a few books.
Chris, you are quite right about the determination part. An older retired guy moved in down the road, and since he purchased a house with a wood stove, got into supplying his own firewood needs. He had never much used his hands for working. He'd come for advice and after showing him the basics, every now and then he'd return to get checked out or was having problems. His desire to get good at the task was what made me want to bother with it, few people that I've come across with such a low initial aptitude for the ability, stick with it. He's been at it a couple years now, and does quite a good job of it. He has some other funny habits when using a saw, likes to cut when down on his knees, revs full blast from start to finish when cutting small diameters, but after some initial pointers I'm letting him be self taught on those aspects. The guy is really keen, I'll go by and see him on his porch filing away, seems to be wearing his chaps about twenty hours a day. Where there is a will..... He's got his wife using another saw that he bought. She took right to it. Chainsaw added a new dimension to their life. They have a large amount of firewood now.
Chris, you are quite right about the determination part. An older retired guy moved in down the road, and since he purchased a house with a wood stove, got into supplying his own firewood needs. He had never much used his hands for working. He'd come for advice and after showing him the basics, every now and then he'd return to get checked out or was having problems. His desire to get good at the task was what made me want to bother with it, few people that I've come across with such a low initial aptitude for the ability, stick with it. He's been at it a couple years now, and does quite a good job of it. He has some other funny habits when using a saw, likes to cut when down on his knees, revs full blast from start to finish when cutting small diameters, but after some initial pointers I'm letting him be self taught on those aspects. The guy is really keen, I'll go by and see him on his porch filing away, seems to be wearing his chaps about twenty hours a day. Where there is a will..... He's got his wife using another saw that he bought. She took right to it. Chainsaw added a new dimension to their life. They have a large amount of firewood now.
