Someone Might Care... Who Knows?

[Magnus]

How this edge look when you are done is what gives the property of the filing. It will decide how well it cuts and acts.

If it is very thin it will appear very sharp, but dull fast. If it is not it will last longer. There are limits to how steep angle can be to be optimal as the fiber needs to curl well.

 

[Cold Logging]

Magnus, I think you'd gain a better audience to the ideas and tools you share here if you weren't as condescending. I'm sir you've noticed, as I've listened to you complain about how no one wants to listen to you here. Truthfully, you have a lot to offer. You're clearly a top expert in the area of chainsaws. The disconnect between your words, and TH ears, is the fact that you act like a dick when instructing us on the err of our ways as you see them. You respond poorly to almost each and every person that offers information or ideas that contradict your own.

You've got a lot of good info to share. I challenge you to share and discuss in such a way that doesn't resemble a judge banging his gavel at the court room. Talk, listen, compare, and consider the fact that you yourself are not finished learning. I believe you'll develop friendships here and also find many of us will be much more inclined to have quality technical discussions with you. I'm being genuine. No smart ass intention at all. Chill a bit and connect with us on a level where we don't feel like we are being slapped on the knuckles with a ruler.

Liked.
And the previous post by Jay.
In fact LOTS of excellent posts on here. . Including several by Magnus.
I don't want to go on a roll here so I'll just say that if your cutting softwood and your not taking your riders down at all until the cutters are half gone, well your chain wouldn't be cutting well enough for me to keep it on a bar. . Its just simple mechanics. If there is no joint then there is no chips. Just rudimentary fileing 101.

 

[pete mctree]

I have been working to improve this week. My sharpening is good & cuts smooth, but could be better. A couple of things though - firstly does anyone else file the sides off the rakers? I am finding it helps keep my chain cutting smoothly. Secondly could some other people put up some pics of there chains - best work only, to compare.

Sometimes is is best to ignore all the bs & read the rest of the thread

 

[Cold Logging]

Other than the magnifying glass on my head I don't use one to check and see how sharp my chains are. I used my scale/paycheck. . And what parts of me were the most beat up exhausted at the end of the day, week, month and season/year. . But Magnus is right. This thread isn't a pissing match. And ime lots of professional saw men will carry on causticly about most everyone else's chain. How theirs is the best. Mine ain't the best out there. But they are between good and extremely good for the type timber I predominately cut. And it would be the rare cutter who's chains got them anymore scale by the end of a tank,hour,day.
Maybe they can out cut me, but it won't be because of their chains.

 

[Magnus]

I don't want to go on a roll here so I'll just say that if your cutting softwood and your not taking your riders down at all until the cutters are half gone, well your chain wouldn't be cutting well enough for me to keep it on a bar. . Its just simple mechanics. If there is no joint then there is no chips. Just rudimentary filing 101.

I sometimes cut soft wood and here it is spruce, birch and aspen mostly. I don't take rakers down when cutting it and I have experimented with rakers in soft wood like this. I find it cuts faster with them high especially with long bars and many cutters for the saw.

Pic's are good you see a lot from it often can magnify quite a bit and still see details.

 

[Jed]

I have been working to improve this week. My sharpening is good & cuts smooth, but could be better. A couple of things though - firstly does anyone else file the sides off the rakers? I am finding it helps keep my chain cutting smoothly. Secondly could some other people put up some pics of there chains - best work only, to compare.

Sometimes is is best to ignore all the bs & read the rest of the thread

Yup, I have to file the sides off of the rakers of our top-handle chain (63ps3). Actually, I'm mostly just filing the stupid anti-kickback (added) hump. Those HAVE to be filed off for a top-handle saw to bore, which I seldom do anyway, but still...

 

[Jed]

Lets drop the talk about us and discuss what is on topic.

A note bout the ten degree file angle.

Most Oregon chain is to be filed with handle lower than 90 degrees towards chain/bar. About 10 lower.
This is as tooths top plate is not straight and when not doing it you get a bit too much hook in corner. It will cut, but it dulls faster, creates aggressiveness and in so vibrations, excessive wear and waste power.

When free hand filing the position of file is more important than side angles as that is what create the angle of top plates face were it cuts. This and corner is the most important parts to get correct. The position of file cut the surface and the top plates upper front were the "sharpness" is.

This is what I was trying to say a while ago. If the bar groove is worn, and the drivers are slightly worn, then when the round file pushes (from inside to outside) then the whole chisel rocks over AT LEAST ten degrees. I was trying to find out if this is all that Oregon was trying to compensate for in recommending the ten degree thing in their literature.

 

[Magnus]

When I lower rakers I do it in a angle. It is pretty pointy in back then this wares down a bit so usually it is only needed once.

There are way's to tell why chains are worn in a specific way.
Bars and chains tell what has been as it is on the bench. Low rider, bad sprocket/rim, too much heat or force etc.

 

[Magnus]

This is what I was trying to say a while ago. If the bar groove is worn, and the drivers are slightly worn, then when the round file pushes (from inside to outside) then the whole chisel rocks over AT LEAST ten degrees. I was trying to find out if this is all that Oregon was trying to compensate for in recommending the ten degree thing in their literature.

No. If all is correct you follow/paralell top plate angle. I do this on most chains.

It can rock in bar as it cuts. That is if you have it filed so it wants to travel out from center (usually too much hook).
If it is filed correct the force is a bit down to bar but not too much. Just enough for it to sit steadily on the rails. If it is wiggelly wobbely it is no matter what chain you have very hard to let it cut true by itself.

 

[Tucker943]

Chris,

May I offer that I feel that there is a bit of a cultural disconnect between yourself and magnus. What I mean is that, culturally, we Americans are largely (though we compulsorily deny it till we're blue in the face) concerned with how we will come across to other people, whereas, Scandinavians and Germans, in General--throughout this post, I will only be speaking in the widest generalities--are largely concerned with finding out truth. One way of finding out truth, (I've tried this btw, many times at work) is to make the biggest ass out of yourself that you possibly can, just to see if you can irritate anyone enough to work up the muster to try to refute you. It works, but I don't think that this is what Magnus is doing. He's simply stating that his chains are incredibly, sharp: sharp enough to cut a fingernail, and that he has frequently used magnification to examine his edges, and from these statements, the poor man, who is using English as a second language, has to encounter any amount of bluster from you and Jay and other Americans, like me who insist on treating everyone around here with kid gloves. (There, there... I'm sure we all have something valid to offer... etc.)

Now me, on the other hand. I can be pretty tough over the internet. If I were there with you in person, I'm pretty sure that I would be a super nice guy, because you could kick my ass. With Jay... the same. Over in Sweden with Mag... the same. However: if the three of you care to come over to Washington for a good ol' redneck cookie cutter... my square filed chain will kick all of your round filed chains asses, and that's that.

You're pretty much wrong. I like the optimistic spin on cultural differences. Cultur differences and poor social skills are not the same.

 

[Tucker943]

Regardless, carry on. And wear gloves.

 

[Cold Logging]

Jed ; if your chain can tilt 10° when the chain is properly tensioned. You have a wore out situation goin on. You can try rolling the rails then grind the rails flat. Shouldn't have to take too much off. Just get them flat, parralel and true. When you roll the rails, make sure you have a piece of new chain with you to make sure they are closed the right amount but not too tight.
Pete ; I take a bit off the outside of the depth gauge if I'm cutting cottonwood or red cedar. But doing that increases bar groove wear. . Doing it allows the cutter.to cut a little wider kerf which helps the bar to freely travel in the cut. However Dura Pro chain,
an Oregon trade mark chain solved that problem in 3/8 pitch. But it's no longer made. . With Oregon 72-75 CL,CK, CJ. I still do it if I'm cutting those 2 species.
Running 404 chain eliminates the need to do that.
Magnus ; perhaps we have a different definition of what a long bar is.

 

[Magnus]

If you have a look at the cutters rider and put rulers on the sides of chain do the riders go all the way out?
I use two new bars and slap them together with chain in the middle up and down.

There you see how it travels in the groove and what is were. Painting cutters is a educating thing as well.
Toplpate and sides, inside, outside and under.

 

[Jed]

Jed ; if your chain can tilt 10° when the chain is properly tensioned. You have a wore out situation goin on. You can try rolling the rails then grind the rails flat. Shouldn't have to take too much off. Just get them flat, parralel and true. When you roll the rails, make sure you have a piece of new chain with you to make sure they are closed the right amount but not too tight.
Pete ; I take a bit off the outside of the depth gauge if I'm cutting cottonwood or red cedar. But doing that increases bar groove wear. . Doing it allows the cutter.to cut a little wider kerf which helps the bar to freely travel in the cut. However Dura Pro chain,
an Oregon trade mark chain solved that problem in 3/8 pitch. But it's no longer made. . With Oregon 72-75 CL,CK, CJ. I still do it if I'm cutting those 2 species.
Running 404 chain eliminates the need to do that.
Magnus ; perhaps we have a different definition of what a long bar is.

Yeah, I'm really new to the whole rolling the rails closed operation and I kinda suck at it. Pinched one of my bars a hair too tight, and could barely get the chain in, but now it's working out all right. What do you use to grind the tops flat?

Say, I've got a question regarding your bar grove wear comment. Made perfect sense, what you said about the rakers. Another Alaskan timber cutter years ago, said that one of the reasons that square grind cuts faster is that the 15 of 20 degree top plates tend to make the drivers travel much more straight through the grove thereby reducing friction against the sides of the groove. He said that the 30 degree tops on round chain cause the drivers to rock over much harder in the grove when the chisels begin to plane on the wood. He said that the decreased friction that fifteen degree tops generate (though he himself ran slightly over 20. I thought that was funny!) was akin to having a slightly bigger motorhead. Do you agree with this?

Magnus: What say you?

 

[Cold Logging]

Yup, squared up it will cut smoother and be easier to control in the cut.
Ideally you would use a Silvey Bar Rail grinder. . However a less expensive solution is to put a 7" metal cutting abrasive blade onto a 10" portable table saw. . Use a square to make sure its at 90° and use that
I've ground lots of bars on my little table saw.

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

I've just used a flat file for fighting mushrooming of the bar. Is grinding doing something different?

 

[flushcut]

Yup, squared up it will cut smoother and be easier to control in the cut.
Ideally you would use a Silvey Bar Rail grinder. . However a less expensive solution is to put a 7" metal cutting abrasive blade onto a 10" portable table saw. . Use a square to make sure its at 90° and use that
I've ground lots of bars on my little table saw.

I use one of the those little P-fred bar file/holder thingy with good results but you have to use it often (oregon powermatch+ bars). I might have to buy a small table saw now.

 

[Jed]

Yeah it is Sean. I'm just now learning all this stuff too. The grinding that we're referring to, has to do with the TOP of the bar rails. Because the chisels pull hard to the sides, in time the outsides of the tops of the rails will wear lower than the inside rail tops. This can quickly lead to certain irregularities which, when they get really bad, can actually lock up a bar in the kerf. I've had this happen two or three times.

 

[Jed]

Me too Rajan, but I don't like that thing. I feel like I can't hold the darned thing straight. Of course it's got that little flat edge that is supposed to help you keep a true 90 down the bar, but I still feel like it's pretty hard to use.

 

[flushcut]

I've found light easy strokes works best. (man that just sounds wrong) lol

 

[Jed]

Thanks for the advise Cold Logger. Stick around. Don't leave us arbos to have to reinvent the wheel having to figure everything out for ourselves!

 

[Jed]

I've found light easy strokes works best. (man that just sounds wrong) lol

Yeah, I just got a new replacement file for mine, and it's working a ton better now, but, yeah... I'm thinking about a table saw too now.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Hahahahaaa...

 

[SouthSoundTree-]

Always seems that the right side rail wore down more than the left, looking toward the tip. Does a flat file not correct the top as well as a grinder? I guess I do that by hand, too. Is it just easier?

 

[Magnus]

Yeah, I'm really new to the whole rolling the rails closed operation and I kinda suck at it. Pinched one of my bars a hair too tight, and could barely get the chain in, but now it's working out all right. What do you use to grind the tops flat?

Say, I've got a question regarding your bar grove wear comment. Made perfect sense, what you said about the rakers. Another Alaskan timber cutter years ago, said that one of the reasons that square grind cuts faster is that the 15 of 20 degree top plates tend to make the drivers travel much more straight through the grove thereby reducing friction against the sides of the groove. He said that the 30 degree tops on round chain cause the drivers to rock over much harder in the grove when the chisels begin to plane on the wood. He said that the decreased friction that fifteen degree tops generate (though he himself ran slightly over 20. I thought that was funny!) was akin to having a slightly bigger motorhead. Do you agree with this?

Magnus: What say you?

I use a hand grinder or flat file to take the burr of the rails. To straighten them and increase depth on solid bars also although I have machines for it.
Cutting groove in depth on free hand with grinder is not something I can rek. It takes a lot of practice.

The angle I am not sure I understand your question.

30 degree angle is pretty normal. I rarely have more than 25.

When drivers wear out groove in bars bottom they also get thinner. Both must be replaced and rim too.
If not the one not replaced will affect the performance/wear on next.

The angle of the cutter as it leans in from cut sides is there for multiple reasons, friction is the biggest reason.
Chisel chain also angle away from cut surface.

The top plate angle is not as important as even sharpness. If it is not sharp it is of no concern what angle it doesn't cut in.

If you flip chain over you see how it wears in the rails. You see how much contact there is and were it wears more or less.
Painting help to see this as well.