Someone Might Care... Who Knows?

[cory]

Omg, those are 2 funny stories. And imagine, Gerr Beranek having to jump thru hoops to get a new chain Omg.

 

[cory]

Maybe not with a super long bar. Ill agree to that for sure. You give me a 20 or 24 inch bar and I will show you a bore cutting machine without low rakers.

 

[gf beranek]

With everything being equal full comp chain is smoother cutting all around. But sharpening it... oh... not worth it in my opinion.

Now when ripping slabs of burl a full comp square chain can produce a surface that needs very little sanding for a good finish. A good app for full comp.

By the way, round chain produces the roughest surface when milling slabs. Much more time is needed to smooth for a finish with a sander.

 

[Chris E]

Ive always sharpened with a slight downward angle that must be close to 10%, will give give it try going upwards-sounds harder though.

 

[ch74]

here is my sharpining. Hand file in a vise .325 skip. I use a file guide you put the file in and clamp it. 30* top plate. 90* to the bar. I think I do ok. I push the file through while pushing slightly back twards saw and down to keep the 3 poc with the file guide.

 

[Jed]

uhhh, yeah.... I'd say that is a whole ton better than "o.k." Man, if the guys in our shop could file that way... well... we'd just have a totally different shop!

btw: is Carlton the same as Oregon?

 

[ch74]

Thanks for the compliment , and I don't know Sir if carlton is the same as Oregon. I ordered it from baileys to try it out , I tried to free hand with just a file but I sucked , so I just use a file guide and count my strokes....Basically, I just follow the basics to sharpening and I get these result. My file in a stump vise is similar but not near as good as a bench vise.

 

[Jed]

Whenever I had a wore out chain that same supervisor would look at it and tell me, "you could cut for another week with this chain." This went on a couple of times and I was getting tired of it. So the next time I had a worn out chain I bored it into the rock road where we were working: totally ruining the chain. But that wasn't enough, I felt. So then I run the chain full throttle over the trailer hitch on the truck. Nice square corner of channel iron. That knocked at least half of the cutters off the chain. Only then was it ready to present to the supervisor for replacement. I got to the station and told him I needed a new chain. He said, "let me see your old one." Oh man, when he saw that chain his eyes rolled back and he cried, "What the F did you hit with this. I got my new chain. Worked like a charm every time.

That guy sounds like a real treat. I also work for a national company, and unfortunately, there seems to be a weird blue-collar cultural pride in getting the most work out of the crummiest equipment. Last month, our shop made over $500,000.00, and most of us have blowers, (hand-held. The backpacks are strictly off-limits.) that won't even start unless you know some dark magic. Our guide-bars are expected to last the life of the saw. We beg for chains, and usually get them about two-weeks after the begging starts. Those of us who are smart, start the begging process way in advance.

 

[ch74]

... Love it...

 

[Jed]

No no no my brother. Full comp chain, if you are accustomed to it, glides nose first into the hardest of wood without hardly touching the rakers. It's all in what you are used to

Sure Tuck: I really was't quarreling with full-comp's ability to bore (a practice that Northwesters generally try to avoid). In fact, the tighter chisel spacing actually facilitates it. That's what I was trying to get across about the one East-Coaster (heck of a tree-guy btw) I know who takes his stops down--with full-comp--so far. It's as if the additional chisels act as extra rakers. However: try making a diagonal cut for an opening in a rock-hard Douglas Fir that way. Don't work. But I perfectly see what you mean with regard to a 20" or 24". Man, these are really funny cultural differences. I.e. There isn't one single guy in our shop who has anything shorter than a 28" bar on his saw, and that's only on our 441's and 372's. Our 660's/395's are always at least 32". (And most of us suck at cutting from both sides.)

 

[ch74]

I bore with this skip chain as well. When it started to chatter I just tourqe the bars one direction or the other like im trying to twist the bar in a cork screw ....It works for me and takes the chatter out...

 

[Jed]

Never heard of that... interesting... You learn something every day.

 

[Magnus]

Oregon and Carlton is owned by Blount.
Windsor/Sandvik was also but are now shut down/gone/finito.

 

[Cold Logging]

I've found residential tree workers

to be one step better then farmers at sharpening chain. Kind of odd.

I'de have never out right said that but that's been what I've seen. Pre commercial tree thinners are on par with most farmers and construction workers. Abysmal.
Falling timber where there is no volcanic ash on the trees, I get about 36-40 total hours out of a 36" chain. Chisel grinding chisel bit. Every 2 weeks I close the rails and grind the rails. When a chain is wore down to 40% of the cutters left, that chain gets retired to firewood cutting or for cutting around a rock pit. . I go thru 3 or 4 bars per season. Sometimes a couple more. .

 

[Magnus]

The further back in tooth you get the more potential it has. They are best in end as there is more room for chipps in each tooth.

 

[Jed]

Magnus: I feel pretty sure that that is only because you guys are running full compliment. If what you're saying is true on the saws you run... probably time to move to, at least, semi-skip.

 

[Magnus]

I thank you for that compliment.
I run semi, full skip and normal chain.
If you compare new chains with old and have same cutter scheme it is still same affects.
I don't need so long bars than the engine can handle so no need for skip chains for that reason.
It has to do with how much each cutter cut until it is full and ride along without working. When the cutter has larger space between rider and cutter it can cut more wood until it is full. If it is smaller wood or you run dull chains it is no matter it will not cut well no matter what until it is sharp.

Sharpening saws is something most say they can, but few that actually know what they are doing. These guy's that do have sharp chains have that until there is not legal to file anymore.

Each cutter use x amount of power. On a specific saw you are limited to a certain number of cutters or you run out of power and chain speed drop, it gets over loaded, hot and problems. Longer distance between same amount of cutters give a longer bar that take same amount of power.
If you test chains with same tooth and pitch, on same saw with same wood you learn a lot.

 

[ch74]

Magnus. Thanks for the info. I never really analyzed it like that.

 

[Cold Logging]

You guys ever have a chain that cuts great but won't nose in with the tip (pushing chain) well at all?

Is it too grabby or just won't bore worth a hoot. ??
These new various safety chains suck at boreing . Too much extra stuff on the chain to counter act kick back. Round shouldered chain doesn't bore as well as chisel bit. But extra metal parts in the depth gauge " rider" part of the chain doesn't help with production cutting.

 

[Cold Logging]

Yeah, that's super interesting. Wonder what's going on there? I's not like full-corner chisels have altered all that much since then, if at all.

Actually, it doesn't take much change in the shape of a cutting tooth th greatly affect how it cuts. When Oregon came out with the Dura Pro chain in the early 90s . Those of us that used it had to change our grinding and depth gauge settings from Oregon 75 CL,CK,or CJ. Same for the guys converting over from 404 to 3/8 . Granted in alogging camp in S.E.Ak. The cutting crew was made up of 5-30 professional fallers and our lively hood was made via perfect cutting chains . So we had quite a laboratory to test things. It was a good place to learn the various things that made a chain cut.
Ime if the wood is clean, no matter how hard it it. Properly chisel filed or ground chisel bit always out cuts and stays shaped longer than any round shouldered or round filed chain. BUT. Put a little grit in the bark or hit a little dirt and it got dull fast. Where as a round shouldered chain still cut. .

 

[Cold Logging]

I bore with this skip chain as well. When it started to chatter I just tourqe the bars one direction or the other like im trying to twist the bar in a cork screw ....It works for me and takes the chatter out...

This is the trick! Twist the saw just right and even a hungry chain will bore. And KEEP YOUR THUMBS WRAPPED AROUND THE HANDLE BARS.
The loading up with chips and too many cutters in the wood are why some of us run full or semi skip chain. To tell the truth I have never really LIKED full comp chain. . To me, it just works the snot out of a guy for the falling and bucking. The only place in soft wood, conifers is Limbing. Full comp.is faster in the limbs. Most bushlers don't specialize in limbing so. And because of the size of the timber and because a cutter can not walk on the ground along side the tree to limb and buck we ran long bars. 30-36+" as a standard length. Depending on how much of the bar we had full of wood regularly we would change powerheads. 70 cc up thru 100+ cc. The lighter saws just made for more scale by the end of the week. As long as there was enough engine power to do the work.
As a general rule I ran semi skip chain as that configuration gave me the rpms combined with smoothness for both the stump and limbs. When I used the 044s I ran full skip as it didn't rob as much power and I had the chain speed for limbing.
A guy just needs to find the combo that does what he wants in the type of wood and style of cutting they do.
But with what ever size and type cutting you do. Making THAT chain and bar combo razor sharp and properly jointed. Well oiled on a straight true bar. Will get you the most out of your saw and time.

 

[Cold Logging]

One of the best things to help a guy get a sharp chair is good glasses or the right magnifier. .
Jed, when chisel fileing, do you push the file from the outside in or the inside out?? The proper way is outside to inside. With the chain tight on the bar. 2 hands on the file. Find your sweet spot for body mechanics and vision and file every tooth at that spot on the bar. . A vise, stump or truck,bench mounted works best. As the saw doesn't move around when your fileing.

 

[Cold Logging]

No no no my brother. Full comp chain, if you are accustomed to it, glides nose first into the hardest of wood without hardly touching the rakers. It's all in what you are used to

Exactly. The smoothest boreing chains are full comp. And don't take the depth guages down very far.

 

[Jed]

I thank you for that compliment.
I run semi, full skip and normal chain.
If you compare new chains with old and have same cutter scheme it is still same affects.
I don't need so long bars than the engine can handle so no need for skip chains for that reason.
It has to do with how much each cutter cut until it is full and ride along without working. When the cutter has larger space between rider and cutter it can cut more wood until it is full. If it is smaller wood or you run dull chains it is no matter it will not cut well no matter what until it is sharp.

Sharpening saws is something most say they can, but few that actually know what they are doing. These guy's that do have sharp chains have that until there is not legal to file anymore.

Each cutter use x amount of power. On a specific saw you are limited to a certain number of cutters or you run out of power and chain speed drop, it gets over loaded, hot and problems. Longer distance between same amount of cutters give a longer bar that take same amount of power.
If you test chains with same tooth and pitch, on same saw with same wood you learn a lot.

Yeah, I kinda knew when I typed that off, that I was taking on the wrong guy. Full compliment!

 

[Jed]

One of the best things to help a guy get a sharp chair is good glasses or the right magnifier. .
Jed, when chisel fileing, do you push the file from the outside in or the inside out?? The proper way is outside to inside. With the chain tight on the bar. 2 hands on the file. Find your sweet spot for body mechanics and vision and file every tooth at that spot on the bar. . A vise, stump or truck,bench mounted works best. As the saw doesn't move around when your fileing.

Yeah, I do go from outside to in, and ram a wedge between the bar and chain (on the bottom) to render it super tight while using, at least, a stump vise. Every once in a while I just nail it (but mostly with the hexagonal, and not with the double bev.) My top plates always look pretty good. It's my side plates that get a little erratic, when I'm using the double-bevel. The side plates are easier with the triangle, because you can just cruise one of the flat sides of it across the very top of the tie straps and (thanks to a lucky coincidence) the side plate angles usually come out pretty good. I think where I'm messing up is when I inadvertantly cut the top plate a hair too thin when I'm filing the left-hand chisels. Then, of course, I'll do it better on my right handers, (I'm right handed) and I'll find a slight curve when I'm in bar-deep wood.

Thanks so much for your super-informative posts btw. To tell the truth, I'm just now starting to learn about the importance of routinely closing the rails, and re-grinding them flat.

Oh... one last thing. Where in the world do you guys get into volcanic ash? I thought that that was all done when they had finally logged off St. Helens.