Some Gasoline tech

[Bart]

Trying to ascertain the effect of alcohol percent on an older (pre 2005) FI vehicle I came across this:

Document Display | NEPIS | US EPA

nepis.epa.gov

God Lord that's a link and a half! maybe this? Doh, it also made a pdf for me but hid the url.

Upshot is percent alcohol leans out your motor @ same jets, and apparently there might be both ethanol and methanol together in your gas. I always thought just ethanol. It has a bunch of tech trivia for those so inclined. So your jetting is as good as your fuel supplier.

 

[Tree09]

Methanol is added in a small percentage to make it poisonous, so it can't be taxed at the beverage rate. It's called denaturing.

 

[Magnus]

The Alcohol is not the big problem in our fuel here, its all other crap in it...
You can run saws on E85 if you find a oil for it and can increase fuel enough.
Been tested here.

 

[Bart]

Isn't the gas by itself already poisonous to drink? I also got the impression the gas company did the component % mixing i.e. they got the ethanol and methanol and other mentioned alternates separately. Doesn't the article show nearly 50/50 ethanol/methanol? There's quite different behaviour of the two apparently.

Apparently Model T's could run gas, ethanol or mix back in the day.


If you expand that link its about the size of a whole post.

 

[Tree09]

Ethanol is made in a plant, no where near the pipeline hubs. Your gasoline and diesel are shipped via pipeline from refineries to a centralized hub for the area, and it's stored in large tanks. Trucks haul in ethanol and additives, and these are also placed in tanks. Then the fuel tanker trucks you see at the gas stations come and are automatically filled with the right product, as all the different gas station brands have their own propriety mix. But the gasoline and ethanol you are getting is the same in a wide area, because it literally all comes from the exact same place.

So your ethanol needs to be made unusable as a beverage at the plant it's made, or they tax it more.

 

[FireFighterZero]

I believe you are 100 percent correct Magnus.



Anyway.......gas today is light years better than 20 years ago.

 

[Magnus]

Not here, here its very bad... No power, aggressive, short storage time 1-2 weeks, real bad...
Same with diesel in most cases.

 

[Bart]

Well, wikipedia to the rescue. Denaturing normally 90%ethyl 10% methyl but stateside apparently there can be less than 50%ethyl and more than 50%methyl sold as simply termed "denatured ethyl". This is probably where the weird mixture ratios in the article came from. It also said Europe uses MEK and other nasties instead of just methyl. And alkylate is being phased in as a base stock for blending stateside while reducing sulphur content. Years ago I was briefly exposed to distillation curves re dirt bike engines. Fuel formulation is a genuine rabbit hole. Aspen fuel is apparently a Swedish invention. Magnus I assume you're a fan of it, but mostly for practical reasons. One blurb said 50/50 ethyl/methyl, when blended, kept the distillation curve closer to pure gasoline's curve vs either ethyl or methyl blended alone. Bonafide chemistry makes my head hurt. Then in high performance engines there's the fuel path, flame front, octane, detonation, heat etc. Just rambling, interesting info particularly the alkylate stuff.

 

[FireFighterZero]

No kidding Mag?


We have no such trouble here.

 

[Fiddler]

Jim, you've had no storage time/separation problems? Do you run all off road gas?

 

[FireFighterZero]

We run premium no lead, clear diesel and a crap load of dyed.

All our gas is the same as anyone else's. Not sure what off road gas would be.




My folks run Regular.


Hell, they dont even drain the fuel bowls before winter.




I will leave gas in a red plastic can for a year and never think anything of it. It takes mom and dad probably 8 months to get through 1000 gallons.



We just dont have any of the near constant problems others seem to have!

 

[Fiddler]

Wow! It used to be that way here, but I've had premium separate on me in a matter of weeks in a can. Had to bring two machines in for carb work this year (first time ever) from not fully draining (and I run them at least once each month). got lucky with my saw...drained gas and added new & she fired.

"off road" here is ethanol free. It's between midgrade and premium and doesn't have the separation problem. I normally use it in all small engines, but didn't this year once and *^%^$#@

 

[FireFighterZero]

Okay. A lot of the time our "premium" will be free of corn squeezings.


We dont run the ethanol because all my shit is old.


Mom and Dad only run the cheap stuff with ethanol and never have any trouble either.



State fire guy I know who runs the saw program only runs the cheap stuff, and never, ever runs the gas out of the carbs.


Just shuts em off and hangs em up for winter.


No idea why we dont have as much trouble as other places.



Some people run 100LL but I dont think its a good idea.

 

[Fiddler]

I can get premium that way too, but it's a 20 mi drive. Used to use it when in the lawn business, and went by there every week, but not since.

I think the off road is 85.

 

[Magnus]

Aspen fuel is apparently a Swedish invention. Magnus I assume you're a fan of it, but mostly for practical reasons. One blurb said 50/50 ethyl/methyl, when blended, kept the distillation curve closer to pure gasoline's curve vs either ethyl or methyl blended alone. Bonafide chemistry makes my head hurt. Then in high performance engines there's the fuel path, flame front, octane, detonation, heat etc. Just rambling, interesting info particularly the alkylate stuff.

Aspen is a Swedish brand, but not a Swedish invention. We used same fuel here in past before environmental hype and fear of running out of oil.
There is no alcohol in it, no benzene no fat acids or additives. Its the purest form of petroleum I know of.
Aspen is not aggressive, you can build fuel tanks of cell plastic and store it in. There is no other fuel like it here that I know of.
The past year they introduced Aspen E, with 10% ethanol, but I haven't sold or tried it.
They are still the best fuel on market here and will be unless they do something drastic to change.
Ethanol in itself is not aggressive or bad, just hard to find good oils that mix well with it.

 

[Al Smith]

I've heard the problems with ethanol but honestly never experienced any myself .About the only thing perhaps is the diaphragms getting stiff on the carbs .That just requires a rebuild which isn't that big of a deal,more so a nuisance .
As far as power per gallon of fuel they say it takes 40 more percent ethanol per volume to get the same power as straight gasoline .I never really worried about that stuff .As far as premium gas to regular even on my ported saws which I have several I couldn't see much difference .Every so often I run some though .

 

[Merle Nelson]

Funny.....I'd feel the same way about it as you do Al.........If, you lived next door to me AND liked working on neighbors saws.

 

[lxskllr]

I might have mentioned it before, but I used to run corn gas in everything. It would be stored in the mower over winter, and though first start in the spring was balky, and sometimes required gas in the carb, it always ran fine after doing the yard once.Saw too. It was packed away with whatever fuel was left in it, and I never had a problem.

I bought my first Stihl saw, and decided to switch all my machines over to real fuel cause I didn't want corn gas in my new expensive saw. After very little use, both my mower and PoulanPro quit working. Seemed like fuel issue, but I never looked into it. The mower was rigged up all over, and it was time for a new one anyway, and the PoulanPro already paid for itself, and I didn't think it was worth dealing with. I don't have any proof of anything, and don't know what the mechanism of failure could be, but it was interesting timing.

 

[Al Smith]

Well my gawd they fuss about the damned gas .Run 100 octane LL from the airport,Marine gas ,Cam II and carry on about it like it's a fully restored Rolls Royce vintage 1936 .Then comes the oil and really gets anal ,talk about huff and snort .
I just don't know how I've every gotten my old saws to run over 40 years without many problems .It's a miracle I tell you .I do have to admit I locked one up from a prime with straight gas once.That really sucked .

 

[Magnus]

Ethanol in itself is not aggressive or bad. If you have a oil that mix with it you can run on E-85, no problems.

Its all that other crap we get in gas that is bad. I think the gas in pumps around me is worst in the world.