Short bar techniques.

[FJR]

Great post Burnahm. When it is all boiled down, it is a matter of the right tool for the job, and that job is dependent on many variables for each person on this board. There is no one size fits all solution.

 

[sotc]

Jed, you haven't been reading very closely for a good number of years if you have any doubt as to where I stand in the short/long bar discussion . Stig and I have engaged in very friendly teasing for some years now. Bottom line, I'm with Jerry.

But here's the thing: when Willard says we long bar boys would look silly and be slow using 30 inch bars in his stands of 16 to 24 inch DBH, he has my complete agreement. In fact, he's being silly himself to suggest any of us long bar advocates would do so. I know I would never chose to mount a bar half a foot longer than any tree I'd ever see, and I seriously doubt Jerry would either. There would be absolutely no advantage to doing so.

That would be like me always cutting with my 084/60 inch bar combo in this part of the world. And I promise you, that would be as absurd as it would be painful!

The point for me is not whether the bar is long or short in and of itself, but whether it's long or short based on the diameter wood you have to fell and buck. For the bulk of my work I run a 460 with 28 inch b/c. That means that for at least 50% of the cuts I make, the bar is some bit shorter than the wood is across. Not lots shorter, like Stig does, but still demanding the skill and technique to do the job with that limitation.

I also always have on board my truck the 066 with 36 inch b/c. I use that when it's appropriate and as often as not, that combo is shorter than the wood is, too...because as much as possible I use the right tool for the job, for me. And that isn't based on wanting to sport the longest bar my saw can pull.

My saw box also has the lovely little MS200 rear handle, with 16 inch b/c. I use that a lot clearing blowdown wood from roads, and I happily pull it out in favor of the others unless the task at hand exceeds 20 or so inches.

In my mind, I'm not running "long bars", I'm just using the bar length dictated by the size of the wood I deal with, choosing to achieve my goals with less futzing around by having saw/bar combos that get close to those sizes. That does mean I limb and to some extent buck with longer than needed bars, but I don't bend over as much and have better reach than a short bar provides, too.

And no matter what Stig says about the Alps, I still maintain that on steep ground a cutter is better off with long bars and 3/4 wrap handles, most every time .

Sure, Stig or Willard or Ed (and a dozen others here I could name as easily) could and maybe even always would choose a much shorter bar for the same tasks, and I admire the skill it takes to do so efficiently. But that ain't for me...and I wonder if those folks shadowed me for a while, if they wouldn't shift a bit in my direction .

I thought thats what I said

 

[HolmenTree]

Jed, you haven't been reading very closely for a good number of years if you have any doubt as to where I stand in the short/long bar discussion . Stig and I have engaged in very friendly teasing for some years now. Bottom line, I'm with Jerry.

But here's the thing: when Willard says we long bar boys would look silly and be slow using 30 inch bars in his stands of 16 to 24 inch DBH, he has my complete agreement. In fact, he's being silly himself to suggest any of us long bar advocates would do so. I know I would never chose to mount a bar half a foot longer than any tree I'd ever see, and I seriously doubt Jerry would either. There would be absolutely no advantage to doing so.

That would be like me always cutting with my 084/60 inch bar combo in this part of the world. And I promise you, that would be as absurd as it would be painful!

The point for me is not whether the bar is long or short in and of itself, but whether it's long or short based on the diameter wood you have to fell and buck. For the bulk of my work I run a 460 with 28 inch b/c. That means that for at least 50% of the cuts I make, the bar is some bit shorter than the wood is across. Not lots shorter, like Stig does, but still demanding the skill and technique to do the job with that limitation.

I also always have on board my truck the 066 with 36 inch b/c. I use that when it's appropriate and as often as not, that combo is shorter than the wood is, too...because as much as possible I use the right tool for the job, for me. And that isn't based on wanting to sport the longest bar my saw can pull.

My saw box also has the lovely little MS200 rear handle, with 16 inch b/c. I use that a lot clearing blowdown wood from roads, and I happily pull it out in favor of the others unless the task at hand exceeds 20 or so inches.

In my mind, I'm not running "long bars", I'm just using the bar length dictated by the size of the wood I deal with, choosing to achieve my goals with less futzing around by having saw/bar combos that get close to those sizes. That does mean I limb and to some extent buck with longer than needed bars, but I don't bend over as much and have better reach than a short bar provides, too.

And no matter what Stig says about the Alps, I still maintain that on steep ground a cutter is better off with long bars and 3/4 wrap handles, most every time .

Sure, Stig or Willard or Ed (and a dozen others here I could name as easily) could and maybe even always would choose a much shorter bar for the same tasks, and I admire the skill it takes to do so efficiently. But that ain't for me...and I wonder if those folks shadowed me for a while, if they wouldn't shift a bit in my direction .

Well said Burnham. I'm not ignorant to the ways in the PNW, I had opportunties to fall on Vancouver Island for IWA unionized Macmillan Bloedel. The PNW was a great place to visit and compete in timbersports but I was comfortable logging for a living in Manitoba.

Lets have pride in our differences and share our experiences with others. Thats what makes the world go around in our wood cutting universe.

Willard

 

[Burnham]

But if we keep our differences to ourselves, we miss out on all the fun of giving each other a good-natured ribbing, Willard . I've never ridden in a crew crummy out to the woods or returning from that didn't feature some of that sort of entertainment to pass the time. Same sort of vibe here in the House, for the most part

And btw, I'd never try to make it seem I feel you are ignorant of anything related to the world of saws, sawyer's skills, and logging. We have at times had disagreements over one point or another, but that just proves that there is more than one valid opinion about many things, and often several ways to skin the same cat .

 

[stig]

I found myself thinking about this thread today at work.

I was thinning a very dense stand of 60 year old beech trees and my main objective was keeping them from getting hung up in each other. I did hang one, but also managed to unhang it with no big fuzz.

I was making very low angle facecuts and boring as much of them out as I dared, So the hinge would break fast allowing the tree to rotate into the lay. Some trees I'd aim at others in order to have them bounce off and go in another direction.
Like playing billiards with trees.

A completely different game from loggin those superlong stems in Burham's PNW where the object is to keep them committed to the lay as long as possible by means of a full hinge and a wide open face.

Or Jerry's monster trees, where the main thing is to get then on the ground without them blowing up into splinters.

Or Willard's frozen boreal forests where branches and tops break off and hinges don't hinge worth a darn.

We work in such different conditions and have to jump through such different hoops in order to accomplice what we have to do: To get as many trees on the ground in one piece, safely as we can in a day.

It is great that we have a place to hang out together and discuss these things and even better that we are able to keep that discussion light and friendly, even though fallers notoriously have big egos. ( otherwise we'd have stuck with setting chokers)

The short/long bar discussion is just a way to pass time and learn from each other, nothing more.

 

[HolmenTree]

Lets have pride in our differences and share our experiences with others. Thats what makes the world go around in our wood cutting universe.

Willard

Burnham I quickly edited how I said differences, but not quick enough before you read it.

Willard.

 

[HolmenTree]

I found myself thinking about this thread today at work.

I was thinning a very dense stand of 60 year old beech trees and my main objective was keeping them from getting hung up in each other. I did hang one, but also managed to unhang it with no big fuzz.

I was making very low angle facecuts and boring as much of them out as I dared, So the hinge would break fast allowing the tree to rotate into the lay. Some trees I'd aim at others in order to have them bounce off and go in another direction.
Like playing billiards with trees.

A completely different game from loggin those superlong stems in Burham's PNW where the object is to keep them committed to the lay as long as possible by means of a full hinge and a wide open face.

Or Jerry's monster trees, where the main thing is to get then on the ground without them blowing up into splinters.

Or Willard's frozen boreal forests where branches and tops break off and hinges don't hinge worth a darn.

We work in such different conditions and have to jump through such different hoops in order to accomplice what we have to do: To get as many trees on the ground in one piece, safely as we can in a day.

It is great that we have a place to hang out together and discuss these things and even better that we are able to keep that discussion light and friendly, even though fallers notoriously have big egos. ( otherwise we'd have stuck with setting chokers)

The short/long bar discussion is just a way to pass time and learn from each other, nothing more.

Well said Stig.
Falling a 200 ft tall fir 36" dbh is a whole different ball game from falling a 100 ft tall spruce 36" dbh. No shallow GOL facecuts on the 200 footer or I may have a barberchair to the heavens. With that much leverage force on the stump I couldn't risk a root pull while putting in a bored backcut and strap.

Here in the Boreal forest try and cut low stumps on rocky ground covered with snow with a long b/c and you won't get much wood cut. If I left high stumps my skidder operator would make a speed bump out of me.

Another thing try falling timber wearing glasses on a freezing cold Manitoba day, you won't get much wood cut either.

Yes we all have our differences.

Willard.

 

[Burnham]

Burnham I quickly edited how I said differences, but not quick enough before you read it.

Willard.

Duly noted.

 

[Jed]

Thanks guys. Good point about the regional differences Stig. I'd kill for the chance to see those Scandinavian hardwood forests. In one sense, those trees are every bit as big. C. S. Lewis said, "The architects tell us that nothing is big or small save by comparison." Gorgeous place you folks live in.

 

[gf beranek]

The monster trees were far and few between. 90% of my cutting was in line clearance, back yard trees and second growth. It made for a great combo over the years.

Nonetheless I had a bar to match the situation in any one.

 

[HolmenTree]

5) Willard. You've probably been asked this way too often, but do hinges even work in that type of cold?

Jed sorry I missed this.
Yes hinges on our spruce work fine in our type of cold -30F or colder. Hardwoods not as good. The spruce is our tree we log and the hardwoods are the weeds. You have to realize we always have 2 ft of snow on the ground here all winter [packs down as the winter goes on] and this snow around the trees base insulates the wood fiber from the cold. I understand spruce has a little natural antifreeze in its cells and with the little heat from the earth the trees hinge fibre stays pliable. But the limbs and tops which are above the snow snap off like toothpicks when the skidders tires and blade runs over them after the tree is felled.

Willard.

 

[Al Smith]

The monster trees were far and few between.

Were I to venture a guess that statement would apply to 95 % of the cutting in most cases no matter where it's at .--and of course the word "monster" could be determined as being relevant as well .

 

[gf beranek]

Even using a 60 inch bar it was still, "short bar techniques" that felled most of those trees.

 

[Al Smith]

I've still got that dead 100 foot oak to trip .I know darned well I could flop it with a 20" but it's just as easy to use something with some grunt with a 32 or 36" right from the get go .

 

[gf beranek]

Even shaving the bark off this one I just barely reached the center from both sides. 36 in bar.



Back in 91 in Salmon Creek with John Ciro. I had a couple of broken ribs and after this tree was bucked I called it quits for the day.

 

[stig]

I knew you were a short bar guy at heart, Jerry.

Fairly low stump too, for the circumstance

Logging with broken ribs is a bitch. Been there, done that....don't ever want to do it again.

 

[gf beranek]

Squaring a felling cut from two sides is still done a lot here actually. Most the younger fallers use what I call a short bar, 32 inch. And they do have to circumnavigate around the stump when they're in any descent second growth. Which is getting more scarce all the time btw. The third growth trees their logging in some places today makes me shake my head and wonder why they don't let it grow. Pecker poles, we call'em.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Is that an 075 0r 76 Gerry?
Great pic BTW.

 

[gf beranek]

That was an 056 magnum. A real muscle saw in its day. It had all the power a man would ever need to pull a 36 to 42 inch bar. But its mounts were terribly weak and I spent way too much time replacing them, on the job and at home. The air filter was weak too. That latter model 044 and 066 took care of both those weak points. and I can't say that I ever broke a mount in either one of those two models ever. I have an 046 mag now, that I just play with, and it's a most excellent saw. Not too heavy and gots the power.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Still a heavy beast to deal with, let alone with broken ribs.. I've run the 066 with bruised ribs and it was no picnic just bucking a log.. TG I had already fallen the dang tree few days prior..
Could not even imagine having to hunch over cutting a face ...

 

[Burnham]

Visuals, for Jer's post...

MS460, and the venerable 056.

 

[Tucker943]

I think I might have struck a deal today on a 460 for $100 now tht you mention them. A fella I work with has it and says he hates it. I had one that my dad borrowed/kept as a firewood saw and cant say i ever used it enough to form an opinion on it. Im gonna buy this one and try it. If its good, it goes in the kennel with my other hounds. If i dont like it, watch the trading forum for a smokin deal on a 460.

 

[Al Smith]

A 460 is a worthy saw .

 

[sawinredneck]

That's a steal of a buy!
Get that thing cleaned up and woods ported and it will run with a 660 all day long, and weigh less! I think you are going to love it!

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Nice buy!