Short bar techniques.

[MasterBlaster]

Interesting.

 

[flushcut]

When I am cutting firewood I will fell the tree with a big saw and buck it up with the same saw and when I am in the limbs I grab a smaller saw. I guess that's why I have 11 of them. Then again I have cut up whole trees with a 372 with a 28" and not given it a second thought and I cut down to three inches. I think knowing how to drop a tree with a short bar is a good skill to have but if you have the tools why not use them.

 

[HolmenTree]

When I am cutting firewood I will fell the tree with a big saw and buck it up with the same saw and when I am in the limbs I grab a smaller saw. I guess that's why I have 11 of them. Then again I have cut up whole trees with a 372 with a 28" and not given it a second thought and I cut down to three inches. I think knowing how to drop a tree with a short bar is a good skill to have but if you have the tools why not use them.

Well cutting firewood and logging are two different ball games. But relying on several different saws to do one job is gonna slow you down big time.

Willard.

 

[HolmenTree]

Butch or Skerwl like you guys did posting the "6 point limbing technique " video by Soren Eriksson can you post his "open face felling techniques for the professional cutter" video.
Its another Soren Eriksson video from the Stihl series library made around 1984.

Excellent 11 minute video, perfect for this thread.

Thanks,
Willard.

 

[stig]

Since meeting so many Euro-fallers I have come to the conclusion that they take pride, and a sort of one-up-man-ship, in falling the biggest trees they can with the shortest bar possible. Bravo! It's fun to prove a point that it can be done, but why go through all the toruble when a few inches more bar length can eliminate all the un-needed buzzing around?

Stirring the pot. Come back..

My comeback would be that as far as I can see, your felling tecniques haven't evolved since the whip-saw when the blade needed to reach through the whole tree.

It seems to me that your way was developed to deal with really big trees, and now that the big trees are mostly gone those tecniques remain, unchanged.

When I went out with a logging team in Humboldt in -99, cutting second growth, they were not using " a few inches more" but using 60" bars on trees that I would normally cut with my 24".

Now Burnham will tell me it is because of the steep terrain in the PNW, which is actually a good comeback to use against a Dane, since this place is flat.
But I have logged in terrain to rival the PNW in Norway and believe me, the Swiss alps beat the hell out of most of the PNW. Beat the hell out of me, too, when I worked there

Also, I am a hardwood faller, primarily ( even though I've managed to knock some 600 cubic meters of doug fir over each of the last two seasons). Even with all the "unneeded buzzing around" the time I spend felling the tree is very minor compared to the time spent bucking and limbing. Working the top of a big hardwood into 9 foot pieces, a long bar just gets in the way.

Actually the one-up- man-ship is mostly for fun, like when we compare American cars, (lots of horsepower) to European ones( can actually turn around corners while at speed)

I have been seeing a lot of regional differences in falling tecniques in my travels.
There are good fallers everywhere, even in Africa( though not many, as far as I can tell).
Like in martial arts, it is not the style or tecnique that makes the diffirence, but the man/woman using them.

A good faller will always shine through, short or long bar.

 

[Tucker943]

The fellas I log with are of the mindframe that nothing over a 20" bar even exists. I believe they get that mindframe from the fact tht 20" is what they were introduced with and they feel nothing else exists. I give them no credit for their opinions. If they'd been around the block and had defined reasons, it would be different. But they have no clue. Come to think of it, i think half the fallers here on the east coast suck.

 

[sawinredneck]

I've changed gears a bit on this as well. No one seems to think 40cc's is going to make me happy with what I want to do with it. I've got a used Dolmar 5100 on hold until I get the funds from my 200t. Planning on a muffler mod at least on it, it comes with an 18" in 3/8's, I figure it should rip like a mother with a 16" with 3/8's on it.
Still short bars, but not the 13-14" I was planning. But it's still good knowledge to have. Anyone have any tips on the bucking part? Seems about every third time or so I just can't get my cuts lined up to match and make a mess of things!

 

[gf beranek]

I talking reach through the stump. If I was in the timber you mentioned and had the ground you work on I would size my bar length down to fit the situation too. In my younger days I could maybe be your match. Ha

Most my career in the second growth a 36 to 42 inch bar length would not clear the trunk and we needed at least two thirds the bar length to reach around to clip the far corner. Hazardous to impossible on the ground we worked with short bar felling techniques.

And that is a fact.

I admire a persons ability to square up all the cuts using short bar techniques, but sometimes you just got to pull out the long bar.

 

[woodworkingboy]

I think it really takes awhile to find the best cutting system for yourself when falling and bucking trees, a lot of experience. Besides the size of the wood, the ground you are working on, there is also your endurance factor, and that can change a bit over time as you age. It requires fitting in the equipment that you have available, not everyone can afford the lightest and most powerful saw in a certain range. Finally getting a rear handle 020 (MS200), has changed things a lot for me. On certain trees, I am limbing and bucking with a smaller saw than has been the case up to now. I mean the speed it cuts isn't as fast as say a saw in the 50cc range, but the rate is acceptable with a good tradeoff with the easy weight. How fast you need to work is a factor too, needing to do the work of two people makes you think more about it.

 

[stig]

Jerry, you have had the luck to be raised as a faller in some of the most incredible trees ever felled.

I for one really envy you that.

My reply to your post was halfway tounge in cheek, since I read your post to be made the same way.


Andy, it'll have to wait a few days, since I'll be working alone with no-one to hold the camera, but I'll get around to post some pictures of a failsafe way to match all your cuts 100% when bucking with a short bar.
The trick is not to take the bar out of the tree, but to sort of cut around the log.

 

[HolmenTree]

In my younger days I could maybe be your match. Ha

I'm afraid you would have to do some major climatizing Jerry, I do my best logging production when its minus -25 F.
Good luck!

Willard.

 

[gf beranek]

Minus 25 is too tough for this old trooper.

 

[flushcut]

I hibernate at that temp.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Meh, double up on your long handles and you'll be just fine. It's a dry cold. ;>)

 

[sawinredneck]

Hell, that's only -10, I cut in that all the time!

 

[HolmenTree]

Hell, that's only -10, I cut in that all the time!

I said -25 F [- 32 C].
I have cut in -40 many times, -40 F and -40 C are the same. If you factor in windchill at that temp it can then be over -50.
Saws work fine at those temps, you just have to put the factory winter kits on and keep them from sucking snow. Skidders take a while to loosen up first thing in the morning.
The benifits....... no limbing or topping.

Willard.

 

[sawinredneck]

Nope! I'm hibernating! I've been out in -25 wind chill plowing snow, no thanks!

 

[SkwerI]

I hibernate at +25 F.

 

[Al Smith]

I've cut years ago when you had to use auto tranny fluid for bar oil it was so cold .I don't have to do that any more so I don't .This I will say ,that cold the old saw engine runs real good .

 

[HolmenTree]

I've cut years ago when you had to use auto tranny fluid for bar oil it was so cold .I don't have to do that any more so I don't .This I will say ,that cold the old saw engine runs real good .

Yes they do run real good Al. More oxygen in the air I guess and you have to richen the Hi speed too.
I did a little landclearing with my saw before Christmas when it was -25 -30 but seeing I haven't logged for some years now I don't really miss it. The tree service during the warmer months is all I need now.
Kind of like Brian said "hibernate when its +25 F ", I like that idea. My older brother who has spent many more hrs logging in the cold then me, is sitting down in Arizona at the moment. He has been spending the last few winters there and he loves it.

Willard.

 

[Bermy]

Oooh, a 441 with an 18" bar...now THAT I could handle!

 

[Jed]

O.K...... Tis' a terrible thing when the gods quarrel. But... So far... Here's my hero-worship scorecard:

1) Jer. Your long-bar theory simply has to win the day, because you're stumps are almost prettier than a few girls I've seen.

2) Stig. Short bars rock, because your powerhead will just scream through wood that the rest of the boys are taking days to get through. AND... Your stumps are darn cute--all things considered.

3) Burnham. Where you at man? Jump into the controversy a little bit more. What size bar for your 2nd gr. Firs? etc. etc.

4) Butch. Where YOU at man. Don't tell me that with all your administrative savvy, you're as stupid as some inbred guy when it comes to posting pictures. Let's see a stump or two!!

5) Willard. You're beyond the man for being able to work in that type of cold with any sized bar. You're a way tougher Viking than even Stig. You've probably been asked this way too often, but do hinges even work in that type of cold?

 

[MasterBlaster]

I'm just a dumb climber.

 

[Jed]

Yup. Same here.

 

[Burnham]

O.K...... Tis' a terrible thing when the gods quarrel. But... So far... Here's my hero-worship scorecard:

1) Jer. Your long-bar theory simply has to win the day, because you're stumps are almost prettier than a few girls I've seen.

2) Stig. Short bars rock, because your powerhead will just scream through wood that the rest of the boys are taking days to get through. AND... Your stumps are darn cute--all things considered.

3) Burnham. Where you at man? Jump into the controversy a little bit more. What size bar for your 2nd gr. Firs? etc. etc.

4) Butch. Where YOU at man. Don't tell me that with all your administrative savvy, you're as stupid as some inbred guy when it comes to posting pictures. Let's see a stump or two!!

5) Willard. You're beyond the man for being able to work in that type of cold with any sized bar. You're a way tougher Viking than even Stig. You've probably been asked this way too often, but do hinges even work in that type of cold?

Jed, you haven't been reading very closely for a good number of years if you have any doubt as to where I stand in the short/long bar discussion . Stig and I have engaged in very friendly teasing for some years now. Bottom line, I'm with Jerry.

But here's the thing: when Willard says we long bar boys would look silly and be slow using 30 inch bars in his stands of 16 to 24 inch DBH, he has my complete agreement. In fact, he's being silly himself to suggest any of us long bar advocates would do so. I know I would never chose to mount a bar half a foot longer than any tree I'd ever see, and I seriously doubt Jerry would either. There would be absolutely no advantage to doing so.

That would be like me always cutting with my 084/60 inch bar combo in this part of the world. And I promise you, that would be as absurd as it would be painful!

The point for me is not whether the bar is long or short in and of itself, but whether it's long or short based on the diameter wood you have to fell and buck. For the bulk of my work I run a 460 with 28 inch b/c. That means that for at least 50% of the cuts I make, the bar is some bit shorter than the wood is across. Not lots shorter, like Stig does, but still demanding the skill and technique to do the job with that limitation.

I also always have on board my truck the 066 with 36 inch b/c. I use that when it's appropriate and as often as not, that combo is shorter than the wood is, too...because as much as possible I use the right tool for the job, for me. And that isn't based on wanting to sport the longest bar my saw can pull.

My saw box also has the lovely little MS200 rear handle, with 16 inch b/c. I use that a lot clearing blowdown wood from roads, and I happily pull it out in favor of the others unless the task at hand exceeds 20 or so inches.

In my mind, I'm not running "long bars", I'm just using the bar length dictated by the size of the wood I deal with, choosing to achieve my goals with less futzing around by having saw/bar combos that get close to those sizes. That does mean I limb and to some extent buck with longer than needed bars, but I don't bend over as much and have better reach than a short bar provides, too.

And no matter what Stig says about the Alps, I still maintain that on steep ground a cutter is better off with long bars and 3/4 wrap handles, most every time .

Sure, Stig or Willard or Ed (and a dozen others here I could name as easily) could and maybe even always would choose a much shorter bar for the same tasks, and I admire the skill it takes to do so efficiently. But that ain't for me...and I wonder if those folks shadowed me for a while, if they wouldn't shift a bit in my direction .