SeanKroll
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true
remote trip swing
- Thread starter murphy4trees
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MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Alright, Kenny!
You're the expert! Develop that app!!!
You're the expert! Develop that app!!!
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
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- Feb 12, 2016
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i certainly would if i could!
And really always try to lend correctly, perhaps too completely in all that i do.
Thus there is much over time i haven't posted, or worked weeks, sometimes shelved for months to come back fresh working on pix etc. before posting.
Mostly this is over word choice etc., tho sometimes it is over drawing correctly; for teaching myself drawing, coloring, shading etc. to perspective is constant, fascinating journey of it's own!
Sometimes it seems as i try to see all around the subject at hand(i actually visualize all facets/sides of a gem to view secrets of it's center) and thru something; i then lose the original / commons perspective(?), assuming that for me was even inline with the masses!
.
Not really wanting to derail these important concepts of this thread more, but still answer!
(i think all the concepts here should be viewed in all rigs as potentials. Perhaps the selector dial is presently set to Zer0 for how much of the concept forces potential is realized in the particular rig and movement; but still constant companions in the overview).
.
The hinge pocket ball/joint concept i tried to sift out and show here is from the low angle line pulling load back into 'hinge pocket' for partial support. Noting in theory if enough pressure into this 'pocket' wouldn't need hinge for support(thus have support like hinge BUT not folding resistance of hinge !), just guy line pressure into this 'ball socket joint' like some sign on a building with angled guy wire for support! Most support shown in virtually all other examples is on the gravity column angle (cosine), this low angle across pulling into hinge 'pocket' angle capitalizes on across gravity force line perspective so capitalizes on sine(in physical size, speed, force etc. geometry is inescapable i believe). Relieving some high tension from rope/ letting some steam escape form rope support, allows load to breathe/move and that light marble (cuz rope still has most of load) then rolls lightly into the hole simply following path of least resistance into face.
.
The near balance hitch point allows section between hinge and hitch to be partial ballast to heavier head floating horizontal. Then hinge just manages the lighter left over load (as far as keeping head horizontal after ballast neutralized some of this concern) until tear-off, then favor head heavy for positive falling, not flipping action. But everything moves light and smooth even tho huge and heavy, simply because of the self ballasting to buffer, and the slow relief of support i think.
Those pix are about 20 years old -at least!
Work time!
And really always try to lend correctly, perhaps too completely in all that i do.
Thus there is much over time i haven't posted, or worked weeks, sometimes shelved for months to come back fresh working on pix etc. before posting.
Mostly this is over word choice etc., tho sometimes it is over drawing correctly; for teaching myself drawing, coloring, shading etc. to perspective is constant, fascinating journey of it's own!
Sometimes it seems as i try to see all around the subject at hand(i actually visualize all facets/sides of a gem to view secrets of it's center) and thru something; i then lose the original / commons perspective(?), assuming that for me was even inline with the masses!
.
Not really wanting to derail these important concepts of this thread more, but still answer!
(i think all the concepts here should be viewed in all rigs as potentials. Perhaps the selector dial is presently set to Zer0 for how much of the concept forces potential is realized in the particular rig and movement; but still constant companions in the overview).
.
The hinge pocket ball/joint concept i tried to sift out and show here is from the low angle line pulling load back into 'hinge pocket' for partial support. Noting in theory if enough pressure into this 'pocket' wouldn't need hinge for support(thus have support like hinge BUT not folding resistance of hinge !), just guy line pressure into this 'ball socket joint' like some sign on a building with angled guy wire for support! Most support shown in virtually all other examples is on the gravity column angle (cosine), this low angle across pulling into hinge 'pocket' angle capitalizes on across gravity force line perspective so capitalizes on sine(in physical size, speed, force etc. geometry is inescapable i believe). Relieving some high tension from rope/ letting some steam escape form rope support, allows load to breathe/move and that light marble (cuz rope still has most of load) then rolls lightly into the hole simply following path of least resistance into face.
.
The near balance hitch point allows section between hinge and hitch to be partial ballast to heavier head floating horizontal. Then hinge just manages the lighter left over load (as far as keeping head horizontal after ballast neutralized some of this concern) until tear-off, then favor head heavy for positive falling, not flipping action. But everything moves light and smooth even tho huge and heavy, simply because of the self ballasting to buffer, and the slow relief of support i think.
Those pix are about 20 years old -at least!
Work time!
pantheraba
More biners!!!
That was a good explanation...how the forces in the xyz planes interweave and inter-relate.
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
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- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
i think facing is very important in this orchestration of fiddling with the forces.
.
The high tension rope angle is pulling back into the hinge like ball socket for partial support, this type support doesn't fight the turn; just like a ball socket wouldn't. The added hinge support is part that resists turn(and a tad to keep ball socket in place is good), but we need less of that hinge support quantity (that resists folding) with partial ball socket pressure support handling part of loadings.
.
The trick won't work safely in my mind as a pure horizontal spin; so i would always give slight downward relief path to rig with face and then rope to keep it 'happy' and simply dance lightly with these forces,don't overload with forces we flirt with, were this can turn on you in a vicious way.. Noting if rope gives nice downward slide path and hinge is pure sideways, forces bind against each other, we want them harmonious to same path not binding that would add extra forces only to fight it self, make it stay gracefull and unconflicted!. Make the handling only as high force as need be, we are walking the redline as it is. Then simply slack rope some and let the load find the easy path of force relief in the face to one slightly downward side. Like a light marble on a slightly slanted table, let it find it's own predictable way. This is where sometimes i'd like the rope coming over load to left side of load and curling under to hitch back toward load center mast to serve load right(rope bent around load in V pointing left to serve right in rolling fashion as the V with 2 rope pulls on it eases out to flat as it 'dumps its load' that then gives turn). To incite more positive and rolling turn from the hitch point on load pulling left as rope bend V on load pulls to target right arching load right to roll into face. Rope slackening as this goes so load drifting downward angle on hinge and face accommodating, not fighting this drift angle as noted before, keep it light.
.
The high rope tension upwards + load hitched near CoG make the load handle more lightly and in contrast simple butt ties give longer load below hitchpoint, so mid hitchpoint on load (of this style)offers more clearance under hitch point than butt tie. Offering some relief of tension/steam in line allows load to 'breathe'/move and it wanders away from all the high tension, as gravity pressing down finds 1 side of downward path blocked; But at same time finds open, easy path of face to other side. You watch it and can see it seek the path of least resistance and simply glides to it like water seeking it's own level.
.
Please see that the limb as load only weighs so much is finite in length and weight as all else. As we have it moving sideways(on own at some point) with some of its finite weight force, there is then logically less of that weight force left to press downwards on the rope i think.
.
Making the long, rigid and heavy handle lightly and predictably with a single thin line, gotta love it!!!
Almost aerial ballet!
.
Once again very nice Murph!
.
For me this exemplifies the 'mantra' :
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon
edit:
When we strip things down to there minimal, required, pivotal concepts; might find comments internally of yeah i do that some, or common sense etc. But, if can show any quality as truly pivotal in our wanderings, should recognize it in all rigs as a potential quantity. Example : support rope angle on load.
.
Whether rope angle is pulling into, out of or even neutral to hinge 'pocket'; it is a quality that should be recognized even if the quantity is Zer0 (on the dial of potential range) of that quality. We should keep the placeholder mentally for next time or even if it might CHANGE this time, keep track of this support rope angle quality dial!!!
.
Also, when we know from before the very start the forces trying to invoke; can start building and aligning to that target in even the smallest parts of the build purposefully for efficiency of own actions and forces employed! This can even look the same, as the old man seems to make same motions as another, just grooming/primping more here and there, but then magically extrudes better result over and over cleanly!
.
.
The high tension rope angle is pulling back into the hinge like ball socket for partial support, this type support doesn't fight the turn; just like a ball socket wouldn't. The added hinge support is part that resists turn(and a tad to keep ball socket in place is good), but we need less of that hinge support quantity (that resists folding) with partial ball socket pressure support handling part of loadings.
.
The trick won't work safely in my mind as a pure horizontal spin; so i would always give slight downward relief path to rig with face and then rope to keep it 'happy' and simply dance lightly with these forces,don't overload with forces we flirt with, were this can turn on you in a vicious way.. Noting if rope gives nice downward slide path and hinge is pure sideways, forces bind against each other, we want them harmonious to same path not binding that would add extra forces only to fight it self, make it stay gracefull and unconflicted!. Make the handling only as high force as need be, we are walking the redline as it is. Then simply slack rope some and let the load find the easy path of force relief in the face to one slightly downward side. Like a light marble on a slightly slanted table, let it find it's own predictable way. This is where sometimes i'd like the rope coming over load to left side of load and curling under to hitch back toward load center mast to serve load right(rope bent around load in V pointing left to serve right in rolling fashion as the V with 2 rope pulls on it eases out to flat as it 'dumps its load' that then gives turn). To incite more positive and rolling turn from the hitch point on load pulling left as rope bend V on load pulls to target right arching load right to roll into face. Rope slackening as this goes so load drifting downward angle on hinge and face accommodating, not fighting this drift angle as noted before, keep it light.
.
The high rope tension upwards + load hitched near CoG make the load handle more lightly and in contrast simple butt ties give longer load below hitchpoint, so mid hitchpoint on load (of this style)offers more clearance under hitch point than butt tie. Offering some relief of tension/steam in line allows load to 'breathe'/move and it wanders away from all the high tension, as gravity pressing down finds 1 side of downward path blocked; But at same time finds open, easy path of face to other side. You watch it and can see it seek the path of least resistance and simply glides to it like water seeking it's own level.
.
Please see that the limb as load only weighs so much is finite in length and weight as all else. As we have it moving sideways(on own at some point) with some of its finite weight force, there is then logically less of that weight force left to press downwards on the rope i think.
.
Making the long, rigid and heavy handle lightly and predictably with a single thin line, gotta love it!!!
Almost aerial ballet!
.
Once again very nice Murph!
.
For me this exemplifies the 'mantra' :
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon
edit:
When we strip things down to there minimal, required, pivotal concepts; might find comments internally of yeah i do that some, or common sense etc. But, if can show any quality as truly pivotal in our wanderings, should recognize it in all rigs as a potential quantity. Example : support rope angle on load.
.
Whether rope angle is pulling into, out of or even neutral to hinge 'pocket'; it is a quality that should be recognized even if the quantity is Zer0 (on the dial of potential range) of that quality. We should keep the placeholder mentally for next time or even if it might CHANGE this time, keep track of this support rope angle quality dial!!!
.
Also, when we know from before the very start the forces trying to invoke; can start building and aligning to that target in even the smallest parts of the build purposefully for efficiency of own actions and forces employed! This can even look the same, as the old man seems to make same motions as another, just grooming/primping more here and there, but then magically extrudes better result over and over cleanly!
.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #31
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/07DiSk74vUE" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Here's a video I put up in 2011, but unlisted it after I realized it was incomplete, specifically about a point that Rocky often makes... the limb can act as a giant lever which will act as a force multiplier on the line and rigging system
Here's a video I put up in 2011, but unlisted it after I realized it was incomplete, specifically about a point that Rocky often makes... the limb can act as a giant lever which will act as a force multiplier on the line and rigging system
Mick!
TreeHouser
That was a decent vid iirc.
Two issues I had with it, the prospect of a upper cut from the butt end and you seem to have some kind of pony tail thing going on.
Two issues I had with it, the prospect of a upper cut from the butt end and you seem to have some kind of pony tail thing going on.
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
i think Rocky means all limbs can be a huge lever on any rig?
Farther out towards CoG would actually reduce leverage ratio against hitch point/support?
Risk to me is more across force towards me?
i think he means stretch rope further, but to me that is another point why to tie out further?
But then this gives more support before tearoff that lets limb drift down further before tearoom, that stretches line for more support to better balance point, but that can get too much ..
.
Taking the across, sine, hinge pocket pressure angle out of the equation, we still have another bright shiny gem in this not seen in most rigs.
A> Pivotal change of main loaded forcePoint to hitch point BEFORE tearoom. Usually hinge is most loaded pivot then tearoom, then slam into rope so that the hitch point is then most loaded pivot.
B>This in turn causes flip to 1st class lever before tearoff, with plenty of ballast.
.
Less shock to line, more balanced, lighter movement from before tearoom and on thru.
At the point of pivotal change from hinge as most loaded point, to hitch point being most loaded point BUT STILL ON HINGE
>>Machinery goes from rope as auxiliary support that pulls load around to:
Hitch point being most loaded (so therefore pivot in my wierld) that hinge is auxiliary support and kinda just 'noses' load around with push sideways
>>then again this is a ballasted 1st class lever it is pushing around ever so lightly
TOTALLY DIFFERENT ~ GAME CHANGER IN MECHANIX
not seen in most rigs: ballast, support line so tight before tearoom hitch point is pivot; especially paired together!
Farther out towards CoG would actually reduce leverage ratio against hitch point/support?
Risk to me is more across force towards me?
i think he means stretch rope further, but to me that is another point why to tie out further?
But then this gives more support before tearoff that lets limb drift down further before tearoom, that stretches line for more support to better balance point, but that can get too much ..
.
Taking the across, sine, hinge pocket pressure angle out of the equation, we still have another bright shiny gem in this not seen in most rigs.
A> Pivotal change of main loaded forcePoint to hitch point BEFORE tearoom. Usually hinge is most loaded pivot then tearoom, then slam into rope so that the hitch point is then most loaded pivot.
B>This in turn causes flip to 1st class lever before tearoff, with plenty of ballast.
.
Less shock to line, more balanced, lighter movement from before tearoom and on thru.
At the point of pivotal change from hinge as most loaded point, to hitch point being most loaded point BUT STILL ON HINGE
>>Machinery goes from rope as auxiliary support that pulls load around to:
Hitch point being most loaded (so therefore pivot in my wierld) that hinge is auxiliary support and kinda just 'noses' load around with push sideways
>>then again this is a ballasted 1st class lever it is pushing around ever so lightly
TOTALLY DIFFERENT ~ GAME CHANGER IN MECHANIX
not seen in most rigs: ballast, support line so tight before tearoom hitch point is pivot; especially paired together!
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
That is something to watch, rule out, and perhaps why he opens with remote triggering by walking to near point of fail with hinge backcut,and then relieving some line tension to trigger fail.
.
upper cut to jaw considerations: AT TEAROFF
climber low/back from cut especially at tearoff
limit line angle back towards climber at tearoff
more ballast length (hinge to hitch)gives buffered uppercut movement but more reach towards climber
line angle (neutral in next pic) not back towards climber at tearoff
.
Best is being out of the batters box if any risk to sawyer, like remote bucket while ground control allows enough support loss to allow hinge to not fail nor hold but rather fold!
Preloading rope with most load BEFORE TEAROFF is less shock to system from the hand off.
Also, different float properties floating most weight on rope pivot rather than hinge pivot while hinge/rope(respectively) power around direction and added support .
The reverse mechanics gives different handling, especially the resistance free(r) most loaded pivot...
work time.
.
upper cut to jaw considerations: AT TEAROFF
climber low/back from cut especially at tearoff
limit line angle back towards climber at tearoff
more ballast length (hinge to hitch)gives buffered uppercut movement but more reach towards climber
line angle (neutral in next pic) not back towards climber at tearoff
.
Best is being out of the batters box if any risk to sawyer, like remote bucket while ground control allows enough support loss to allow hinge to not fail nor hold but rather fold!
Preloading rope with most load BEFORE TEAROFF is less shock to system from the hand off.
Also, different float properties floating most weight on rope pivot rather than hinge pivot while hinge/rope(respectively) power around direction and added support .
The reverse mechanics gives different handling, especially the resistance free(r) most loaded pivot...
work time.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #36
I think Rocky speaks from experience..
I broke a rope once, thinking I was "helping" by reducing shock load... the limb acted like a giant lever, which I only realized was an issue afterwards... SO it is a fair warning.. and of course that limb was HUGE, so not that much of an issue on most rigging...
Thank you again Ken for blazing the path on this understanding... You took a lot of unwarranted criticism from many who just didn't understand, but you kept at it.... I didn't really fully get it either until I saw it in action.. Hopefully the videos help..
D
I broke a rope once, thinking I was "helping" by reducing shock load... the limb acted like a giant lever, which I only realized was an issue afterwards... SO it is a fair warning.. and of course that limb was HUGE, so not that much of an issue on most rigging...
Thank you again Ken for blazing the path on this understanding... You took a lot of unwarranted criticism from many who just didn't understand, but you kept at it.... I didn't really fully get it either until I saw it in action.. Hopefully the videos help..
D
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
A#1:i'm most home at the house;and have no problems here, wish i could do better.
.
For me this rig was partially born from a short butt tie that would assist main rig in ushering hitchpoint under the support point for gradual low impact release.
>>or actually before for cleaner pull away
>>transfer to main with less slam into line
Then the hinge fiber became my temporary, expendable butt tie to position load hitchpoint almost under support
>>The further out hitchpoint gave more reach across, better balance to any weight transferred to rig line
>>then saw self tightening aspect of using leverage-able length down to stretch rope on own.
Eventually inverting usual problem of not enough tension and impacting on catches etc.
>>to too much tension, must depend on predictable relief, always drawn tite so low impact.
also turned length to friend for reach and tightening to the tension
>>can stash about half of length above hitch point with technique.
>>Factors usually fought could now capitalize on!
Always a game changer if you can play it either way!
.
Especially high up can fight lots of elastic length in rope in drop to ground control to tighten/self-tighten..
These were my fave for many other things but also very much so for this more immediate restriction needed to force line tension high with less movement.
.
Remotely install, remove, tighten the high friction with much less elastic length to take hits but also least amount of prestretch needed to self pre-tighten.
.
.
Top row of pix can give more balanced loading ;
i used especially bottom half of pic on many things.
3 half rope circles of friction close to load, least amount of line to high friction.
>>Break to only 2 half circles and bend between them holding control side half rope circle locked
Tighten by remotely 'sweating'/'swigging'/leveraging line tighter and quickly passing a 'purchase' to the control side and 'making fast'/'hold fast'(secure).
>>'old sailor terms of rope handling'
>>>>(i like them because shows so much force of intent from those that depended their lives to simpler ropes for millenniums).
.
The high frictional support(2nd pic row) leaves less tension ed pull on control leg
>>Thus support is less loaded
>>but then also less dynamic length for shock absorption >> less pretighten needed
capitalize on your strong points from the rule set,forge against weak points/leverage-able against you
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon
.
Rope tight as iron, can be leveraged like iron. The leveraged return is in the tight resistance being bent.
>>iron has tight resistance at room temperature, rope needs to be tightened for tight resistance.
>>Rope can give leverage and interior structure, forming easily (unloaded) without having to heat to 2000degrees like metal.
.
For me this rig was partially born from a short butt tie that would assist main rig in ushering hitchpoint under the support point for gradual low impact release.
>>or actually before for cleaner pull away
>>transfer to main with less slam into line
Then the hinge fiber became my temporary, expendable butt tie to position load hitchpoint almost under support
>>The further out hitchpoint gave more reach across, better balance to any weight transferred to rig line
>>then saw self tightening aspect of using leverage-able length down to stretch rope on own.
Eventually inverting usual problem of not enough tension and impacting on catches etc.
>>to too much tension, must depend on predictable relief, always drawn tite so low impact.
also turned length to friend for reach and tightening to the tension
>>can stash about half of length above hitch point with technique.
>>Factors usually fought could now capitalize on!
Always a game changer if you can play it either way!
.
Especially high up can fight lots of elastic length in rope in drop to ground control to tighten/self-tighten..
These were my fave for many other things but also very much so for this more immediate restriction needed to force line tension high with less movement.
.
Remotely install, remove, tighten the high friction with much less elastic length to take hits but also least amount of prestretch needed to self pre-tighten.
.
.
Top row of pix can give more balanced loading ;
i used especially bottom half of pic on many things.
3 half rope circles of friction close to load, least amount of line to high friction.
>>Break to only 2 half circles and bend between them holding control side half rope circle locked
Tighten by remotely 'sweating'/'swigging'/leveraging line tighter and quickly passing a 'purchase' to the control side and 'making fast'/'hold fast'(secure).
>>'old sailor terms of rope handling'
>>>>(i like them because shows so much force of intent from those that depended their lives to simpler ropes for millenniums).
.
The high frictional support(2nd pic row) leaves less tension ed pull on control leg
>>Thus support is less loaded
>>but then also less dynamic length for shock absorption >> less pretighten needed
capitalize on your strong points from the rule set,forge against weak points/leverage-able against you
"Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed" -Sir Francis Bacon
.
Rope tight as iron, can be leveraged like iron. The leveraged return is in the tight resistance being bent.
>>iron has tight resistance at room temperature, rope needs to be tightened for tight resistance.
>>Rope can give leverage and interior structure, forming easily (unloaded) without having to heat to 2000degrees like metal.
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
Can't believe how much they killed off Flash
i found this last night and tried to convert several ways and made nearly impossible because can't find the authoring file, finally played in a window and screen captured to individual pix and had moviemaker sew back together was the only route... Won't be chasing any more as far, but have original authoring file for some.
.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/M4K8bQMxWho" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
.
i can tell drawings in msPaint are before 2000, ones on black background with these vector drawings are after 2004, feeling old!
i found this last night and tried to convert several ways and made nearly impossible because can't find the authoring file, finally played in a window and screen captured to individual pix and had moviemaker sew back together was the only route... Won't be chasing any more as far, but have original authoring file for some.
.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/M4K8bQMxWho" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>
.
i can tell drawings in msPaint are before 2000, ones on black background with these vector drawings are after 2004, feeling old!
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #39
Give me a call Kenny. Would love to catch up..
D
D
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