Passed on This Job -- Not Comfortable with Risk (how difficult really?)

[Burnham]

I added the pics of the failed fall at the end of the thread. Maybe Butch can put them in the right place at post #78.

https://www.masterblasterhome.com/showthread.php?14695-One-I-think-I-m-gonna-walk-away-from

 

[Mick!]

Re the op.

Get someone more experienced in to quote it, bung on $500 or whatever.

Where’s the entrepreneurial spirit?

 

[Bermy]

Yeah, just make sure you agree on the 'commission' or handle the billing yourself...guy I brought in to do a couple of trees I didn't have time for said verbally he'd kick me a gratuity...never did.
Bastid.

 

[rfwoody]

THANKS ALL!!!

Thanks Burnham for that thread and fixing the pics.... planning on reviewing it later this afternoon giving it the time to do it justice.

Yes... good rope high in tree and pull with truck AND wedging was my original plan (since only a small amount of backlean)
but it made me nervous:
* can't screw up cut (much)!
* what if I underestimated backlean
* what if truck can't put enough force to rope in tree (I still need to get an arborists block for doing the redirect).

With a few successes under my belt of something similar (i.e. away from expensive obstacles), I could/would do it.

Great ideas about customer service -- providing name(s) of good alternative.

Yeah, for partnering/sub-contracting it out...my GL insurance has a stipulation that I can't do that...
It may be a gray area if it came to telling somebody else about it and taking a "finder's fee"... I need to check.
haha, yeah, "ouch" on the entrepreneurial spirit of it... got to work on that.

And for the cleanup.... that would have been a bonus, because it is just right down the street and I would have hauled the wood back for firewood and just burned the brush right in the customer's yard.
--- but I may still try to work something out with them about taking the cleanup part of the job (assuming whoever they get will give them a good break in the price by leaving it).

 

[SeanKroll]

How much do 36" rounds of oak weigh? That's machine work, IMO. What bucking saw do you have?

Looks like mobile milling wood, possibly.

 

[stig]

What am I not seeing?

I hate looking at pictures and deciding how to do trees ( There is a good story in that, If somebody wants it)

But to me it looks like : Thowline, set pull rope, winch them over, BAM!
Make that times 3.

Should have them all on the ground in less than an hour.

So, apart from growing old and senile, am I getting blind, too?

 

[SeanKroll]

Robert. A good plan for fear of screwing up your facecut/ backcut is to mark it out. You have clear STOP points.

Getting good with a throwline is key. If you can set some high pull rope (basal tie) and go manually pull trees, you will see what its like to have a 60'- 80' lever, which is very persuasive.

A perpendicular view would be helpful, showing backweight.


A string and weight make a good plumb-bob, or a real plumb-bob, if you happen to have one. This can help in assessments of trees.

 

[theTreeSpyder]

Follow your gut; i think anyone here can say you can get in the worst trouble when you don't!
>>cultivate/don't ignore your gut were it will be spurned and won't talk anymore or as loud!
.
Visualize a plan over and over from different angles, like turning a fancy chess board around on pivot in a movie,as you plot scenarios of different plans etc.
>>take your time planning; cuz this is more like a 3 layer chess board on Star Trek and Spock is trying to play with your mind; don't let him rush you to err and laugh at you!
.
hard to see leans towards house to evaluate
>> if power lines private pole to house, not so much shared commons pole to pole, would expect power company to drop for few hours when ok with customer
>>if high power community line would ask for safety trim from power company
>>be ready to move communication lines yourself, if phone boxes in area take 3/8" nut driver, carry nut driver
.
Throwline is virtually cheapest investment on truck, save tons of work and safer to throwline in than climb, or allow it to help you climb.
How much would you pay yourself to climb all 3 and put lines in?
>>is a throwline cheaper/faster/safer? and that you'd have taking forward making jobs easier?
.
Para-cord and a mechanix rag of dirt can even work;you want a soft/deforming weight that won't bounce out;
>> but rather just smash to 'puddle' and slide down into target,rather than bouncing out like hunk of metal , wood, rubber would etc.
.
Use rake trick or roofers square etc. to 45degree out the falls, make sure no obstacles.
>>at 45 degree angle, site base and top correctly, and your standing in fall line, pretty much at tip, rake trick/plumber's square etc. just help make the geometric 45
>>brushing head/stem besides something in felling can be a HIGH leverage(if stiff) push sideways against hinge pivot.
>>same as:make sure no branches tangled or will be tangled with other trees thru fall
.
Pull with rope/push with wedge to face/not against sidelean; use added forces to challenge/make hinge stronger by earlier fold
>>wedge push naturally stops on lift after stronger hinge is forced; so then doesn't stress against stronger hinge/ wedge action stops
>>rope pull should be similar, pull to force stronger hinge, then let hinge guide without rope still trying to pull tree faster etc.
>>backlean exception,must pull tree over 'hill'/top of arc to stage to fall side positioning
>>rope pulls take another man
>>might be able to rotate fall angle so backlean becomes sidelean you can handle
>> can also rig some backlean out
.
Pull with truck,heavy truck, with good tires, on good, solid,dry,flat ground , plenty of gas, pre-plan load of wood in back of truck have to carry anyway for more traction.
>>longer line best, want flatter rope angle, as pulling forward, rope will pull UP on truck losing some traction the further you go
>>can redirect to low pulley, so pulley captures upward pull and truck only gets straight line pull/ fights load with full traction whole time.
>>learn to drag 800# at time with truck on clean-up
>>learn to make tight about 6'x 6' stomped down all same direction, same curl brush stacks that has good strong branch at bottom of sled, drag with truck, don't lift anything to then unload that you can drag!
>>meter overwhelming leverage and pull of truck to tree lightly to (unless backlean) just FORCE stronger hinge that can handle side to side part of load (tapered against sidelean etc.)
rope pull is best with wedge backup as safety and help some to
stronger hinge gives stronger steering,and softer hit
.
All this is dependent on good rooting, and good wood >>INSPECT
>>listen to customer,why are they removing trees?>>listen hard for any faults to wood etc.

 

[rfwoody]

How much do 36" rounds of oak weigh? That's machine work, IMO. What bucking saw do you have?

Looks like mobile milling wood, possibly.

About 450 lbs. per foot thickness .... and I would need to cut them approx 18" ... might have to split into 4ths before loading.

461 with 25" bar -- currently in shop to fix idling issue (should learn to do it myself, right?!)
660 with 28" (regular) or 36" (light) bar -- but I messed up my 36" chain

Yeah, somehow selling them for milling is a good idea.

 

[rfwoody]

What am I not seeing?

I hate looking at pictures and deciding how to do trees ( There is a good story in that, If somebody wants it)

But to me it looks like : Thowline, set pull rope, winch them over, BAM!
Make that times 3.

Should have them all on the ground in less than an hour.

So, apart from growing old and senile, am I getting blind, too?

No sir.

That is exactly how I would have done them. (only using my truck redirected through a block instead of a winch).

I guess my hesitation lay in my doubts about possibly messing up the hinge.

>> "messing up the hinge?! ... that's falling 101!"

Yeah, I know but I don't have a lot of experience falling 36" trees ... now if they were out in an open area, no problem!

But since they were next to an expensive obstacle/hazard (the house) ... and somewhat leaning in that direction, I was afraid.

================================================

I will take this opportunity to say that I spoke to my friend, and after I passed on the job,
he had a well known local company come by and look at them.

They were going to charge him $2600 for both of them.
AND they said they would bring in buckets, etc. to dismantle them.

I told him I thought that was way overkill and it shouldn't be necessary, explaining to him what you, Stig, and several others have said about simply falling/felling them whole.

This local company must have something going for them because they have been in business a while and people apparently keep using them..... but the fact that they would dismantle these from the top and not just fall them whole makes me wonder about them.

 

[SeanKroll]

You're going to be dealing with 600+ pound rounds, by hand?

Renting a machine and having a HD trailer with brakes is very worthwhile on a job like this, but your rig is too small as a wood hauler for hardwood, IMO.
Renting a dump trailer and delivering directly from the jobsite to the customer, no stacking, might work.



I'd split it fully, load it once, and unload it right to the wood stack, once, if taking home for my own use. Otherwise, I'd sell it green for next year's wood.

 

[SeanKroll]

People use machines they have, and often steer customer's toward their way of doing things.

Your friend may have said/ hinted that he really didn't want impact.

A lot of tree services can't fell trees for squat.




Big trees are easier to maintain control of the hinge than small trees, in some ways. 1/4" error can make a lot more difference on a 0.5" hinge than a 2" hinge.

Mark it out, don't cut outside the lines. You have lots of time, and its not threading a needle. You look largely to have a wide drop zone. A couple degrees here or there isn't consequential.

 

[rfwoody]

Robert. A good plan for fear of screwing up your facecut/ backcut is to mark it out. You have clear STOP points.

Getting good with a throwline is key. If you can set some high pull rope (basal tie) and go manually pull trees, you will see what its like to have a 60'- 80' lever, which is very persuasive.

A perpendicular view would be helpful, showing backweight.


A string and weight make a good plumb-bob, or a real plumb-bob, if you happen to have one. This can help in assessments of trees.

Thanks Sean.
That seems like a very great idea about marking it! .... I am going to start trying that even on small trees just to get the concept and practice!

haha, I think I am pretty good with a throwweight ... growing up playing neighborhood baseball, (American) football, etc. (not that I couldn't improve).

I will remember about the plumbob ... (the forresters use their axe as a plumbbob I have seen).

But what about the overall canopy size...i.e. center of entire canopy from a distance and bringing the line straight down?

 

[SeanKroll]

Axes work, but are chopping/ beating tools. A piece of string and machine nut take up almost no space, and cost almost nothing. You can even hang it on a long stick and make the plumb line 10' tall (never done this).

Remember, the stump is bearing most of the force (weight). You're trying to pivot it over, not lift the entire weight. Think of how hard it is to pull over a person holding a rope at shoulder height, who is leaning back against a wall 10*. Significantly less than their weight.

Mini-excavators are easy to manage on flat ground, its not open heart surgery. That being said, don't ask me to dig on a slope with them, or sled one down a slope, like you see on Youtube.

 

[rfwoody]

You're going to be dealing with 600+ pound rounds, by hand?

Renting a machine and having a HD trailer with brakes is very worthwhile on a job like this, but your rig is too small as a wood hauler for hardwood, IMO.
Renting a dump trailer and delivering directly from the jobsite to the customer, no stacking, might work.



I'd split it fully, load it once, and unload it right to the wood stack, once, if taking home for my own use. Otherwise, I'd sell it green for next year's wood.

People use machines they have, and often steer customer's toward their way of doing things.

Your friend may have said/ hinted that he really didn't want impact.

A lot of tree services can't fell trees for squat.




Big trees are easier to maintain control of the hinge than small trees, in some ways. 1/4" error can make a lot more difference on a 0.5" hinge than a 2" hinge.

Mark it out, don't cut outside the lines. You have lots of time, and its not threading a needle. You look largely to have a wide drop zone. A couple degrees here or there isn't consequential.

Sean, as always, thanks for your learned and experienced advice!!!

haha, but I do want to practice on trees this size "in the open" before tackling them next to a house

by the way.... I ordered a trailer.... a PJ 72" x 12' rated for 5200 lbs. ... should be here in 3 or 4 weeks.

AND I WILL BE THE FIRST TO ADMIT IF/WHEN I CONCLUDE THAT I WISH I HAD GOTTEN A BIGGER TRAILER (e.g. 83" x 16')

 

[rfwoody]

Axes work, but are chopping/ beating tools. A piece of string and machine nut take up almost no space, and cost almost nothing. You can even hang it on a long stick and make the plumb line 10' tall (never done this).

Remember, the stump is bearing most of the force (weight). You're trying to pivot it over, not lift the entire weight. Think of how hard it is to pull over a person holding a rope at shoulder height, who is leaning back against a wall 10*. Significantly less than their weight.

Mini-excavators are easy to manage on flat ground, its not open heart surgery. That being said, don't ask me to dig on a slope with them, or sled one down a slope, like you see on Youtube.

Thanks Sean!

 

[SeanKroll]

I used to teach totally green college 'kids' for an Americorps conservation program.

They started by practicing their face-cuts/ back-cuts on a stump. Smart novices face-cut things that didn't need face-cutting, so as to get the practice.


These are basic trees, but big.

Looking at that price, you can afford to rent equipment. They surely weren't going to tackle it without equipment.




You need brakes on the trailer. What is your towing capacity? Look at your driver's door jamb sticker.

 

[rfwoody]

Follow your gut; i think anyone here can say you can get in the worst trouble when you don't!
>>cultivate/don't ignore your gut were it will be spurned and won't talk anymore or as loud!
.
Visualize a plan over and over from different angles, like turning a fancy chess board around on pivot in a movie,as you plot scenarios of different plans etc.
>>take your time planning; cuz this is more like a 3 layer chess board on Star Trek and Spock is trying to play with your mind; don't let him rush you to err and laugh at you!
.
hard to see leans towards house to evaluate
>> if power lines private pole to house, not so much shared commons pole to pole, would expect power company to drop for few hours when ok with customer
>>if high power community line would ask for safety trim from power company
>>be ready to move communication lines yourself, if phone boxes in area take 3/8" nut driver, carry nut driver
.
Throwline is virtually cheapest investment on truck, save tons of work and safer to throwline in than climb, or allow it to help you climb.
How much would you pay yourself to climb all 3 and put lines in?
>>is a throwline cheaper/faster/safer? and that you'd have taking forward making jobs easier?
.
Para-cord and a mechanix rag of dirt can even work;you want a soft/deforming weight that won't bounce out;
>> but rather just smash to 'puddle' and slide down into target,rather than bouncing out like hunk of metal , wood, rubber would etc.
.
Use rake trick or roofers square etc. to 45degree out the falls, make sure no obstacles.
>>at 45 degree angle, site base and top correctly, and your standing in fall line, pretty much at tip, rake trick/plumber's square etc. just help make the geometric 45
>>brushing head/stem besides something in felling can be a HIGH leverage(if stiff) push sideways against hinge pivot.
>>same as:make sure no branches tangled or will be tangled with other trees thru fall
.
Pull with rope/push with wedge to face/not against sidelean; use added forces to challenge/make hinge stronger by earlier fold
>>wedge push naturally stops on lift after stronger hinge is forced; so then doesn't stress against stronger hinge/ wedge action stops
>>rope pull should be similar, pull to force stronger hinge, then let hinge guide without rope still trying to pull tree faster etc.
>>backlean exception,must pull tree over 'hill'/top of arc to stage to fall side positioning
>>rope pulls take another man
>>might be able to rotate fall angle so backlean becomes sidelean you can handle
>> can also rig some backlean out
.
Pull with truck,heavy truck, with good tires, on good, solid,dry,flat ground , plenty of gas, pre-plan load of wood in back of truck have to carry anyway for more traction.
>>longer line best, want flatter rope angle, as pulling forward, rope will pull UP on truck losing some traction the further you go
>>can redirect to low pulley, so pulley captures upward pull and truck only gets straight line pull/ fights load with full traction whole time.
>>learn to drag 800# at time with truck on clean-up
>>learn to make tight about 6'x 6' stomped down all same direction, same curl brush stacks that has good strong branch at bottom of sled, drag with truck, don't lift anything to then unload that you can drag!
>>meter overwhelming leverage and pull of truck to tree lightly to (unless backlean) just FORCE stronger hinge that can handle side to side part of load (tapered against sidelean etc.)
rope pull is best with wedge backup as safety and help some to
stronger hinge gives stronger steering,and softer hit
.
All this is dependent on good rooting, and good wood >>INSPECT
>>listen to customer,why are they removing trees?>>listen hard for any faults to wood etc.

Thanks a lot TreeSpyder! Lots of good stuff here... and I actually understand most of it!

gut
Spock - 3d chess
there was some backlean
45 degree carpenter's square great idea
yeah, I think I'm ok with a throw weight/line.
rag as throwweight great idea
yeah, redirect line in tree via block to truck so truck is pulling level and getting more force to top of tree.
labor saving techniques remind me of Sean -- great stuff!

Thanks a lot for taking the time to share your experience!

 

[rfwoody]

I used to teach totally green college 'kids' for an Americorps conservation program.

They started by practicing their face-cuts/ back-cuts on a stump. Smart novices face-cut things that didn't need face-cutting, so as to get the practice.


These are basic trees, but big.

Looking at that price, you can afford to rent equipment. They surely weren't going to tackle it without equipment.




You need brakes on the trailer. What is your towing capacity? Look at your driver's door jamb sticker.

Yes... brakes on both axles.

Yes... good point... I try to do this... try to always think technique even when I "don't have to"

Good point... "driver's door jamb sticker" .. will do!

 

[SeanKroll]

Yes... brakes on both axles.

Yes... good point... I try to do this... try to always think technique even when I "don't have to"

Good point... "driver's door jamb sticker" .. will do!

You might have a chance to change to the bigger trailer, if you're waiting 4 weeks anyway. Maybe of any time of the year, winter is an ok time to wait 4 weeks on a trailer.

 

[Tree09]

Yeah a 5k trailer will only hold 4k of material. You can put that much in the bed of a 1 ton and still be under gvw. That's about as useless as tits on a boar.

 

[rfwoody]

haha, Kyle, you will be among the first to know if it turns out that I regret my purchase!

(... but it is actually rated to *hold* 5k .... and my truck is only 3/4 ton)

 

[Tree09]

I routinely haul 3000 pounds of water with my 3/4 ton Ford, it hardly tells it's there.

 

[Limbrat]

A string and weight make a good plumb-bob, or a real plumb-bob, if you happen to have one. This can help in assessments of trees.

If you've got a throw bag and throw line, you've got a plumb bob, Bob.

 

[dstimber]

My trailer is rated for 10k that's with the weight of the trailer. I added nearly 1500 when I made a dump trailer out of it. So I can actually only haul around 4500 lbs. if I had to do it again I would go ahead and spring for a 14k trailer at the least.
I did haul our small excavator to the last job I did. Trailer weight of 5500ish plus 12500 for the excavator was a hell of a load for my 1/2 ton truck. 18K pounds 25 total for truck trailer and load.
My truck is only rated to tow 9500 I think. It pulled and stopped just as good if not better than my dads 3/4 duramax. The air bag helper springs and good tires made all the difference.

I wouldn't dare do that on a regular basis tho. Or any long distance.