New Lowering Device

[Page]

Very cool. When can I get one?

 

[woodworkingboy]

End of the year or early 2015.

.

 

[biggun]

Cool gizmo.

Your quest in making tree work easier is admirable Reg. Good to catch up with you at the show, hope you had a decent journey home.

Good luck with the launch.

 

[rbtree]

Very cool add on, Reg.

That said, as I've had a GRCS for nearly 10 years now, I've found numerous ways to make use of its ability to lift loads more than a little bit, and beyond simple rope tensioning... such as lifting a big lead when it is tip tied.... and butt heavy. or when low limbs need to be lifted onto a speed line so as to be able to clear obstacles... Using the drill chuck and powerful right angle drill is another added feature it has, as well. Sadly, yet another break in occurred back in August....and the right angle drill was stolen.... but I'd bought it for $100, or $450 less than new. Worse was the theft of the 034 Super powered Simpson capstan winch, which I'd just had repaired, and had left it, n secured, in my garage. Thief was a low life who I hadn't seen for 7 years, after he'd been caught for stealing and forging five checks of mine. Cops got him this time, trying to break in to my work truck, but not before he'd made off with over $3k worth of stuff from the garage. They searched his accomplice's car, but it was empty, meaning he'd made off with at least a car load. And Wa state law prevents the police from searching the perp's living quarters unless it is known 100% they stole the goods. I guess 99.99999% isn't enough. The fucker actually has over 450 FB friends...... https://www.facebook.com/ryan.sommars

 

[RegC]

Thanks again guys


Hey Rog. We're not trying to compete with the GRCS. I believe that device will reign for a long time as the best allrounder. We have aimed at an altogether different price point in the market. For basic lifiting and lowering requirements, proven durability, at a price that hopefully won't hurt so much. FWIW, I've done my share of fancy rigging also....but not with a grcs. Might take a little more time and thought, but still doeble on the odd occasion that it was the best method of choice. Owning a grcs would never have suited my particular situation. Although I've nearly pulled the trigger on one in the past.... Being the lead climber, with so many different ground workers from week to week....to much much money strapped to the bottom of the tree that's being ripped apart. I appreciate that everyone's situation is different though.

Sorry to here about the theivery that seems to be an on going battle with your situation. It must drive you mad

 

[treesandsurf]

Thanks again guys. Constructive criticisms are always welcome too. Don't hold back if something comes to mind....it's all good.

I've never really understood the huge fan base of the GRCS. It's a great lifting device if you want to lift a 300lb log for 50 ft. For taking out slack on a large trunk section and then transitioning to a lowering operation in a short period of time, I never liked or trust ed the device at the hands of not only myself or people below me.

That being said I have mixed feelings about the approach on this new stein device. I haven't used so really can't comment with any confidence but my hunch is it will sell to the elite or seasoned tree guys but the average tree worker or company owner who employs the average tree worker might not be sold on this setup. But who knows....

jp

 

[Chris E]

I think they have hit the nail on the head with this device, sure seems a clunkier process for tensioning and lowering than a grcs but the price sounds right for the less elite like myself

 

[RegC]

but the price sounds right for the less elite like myself

Lol at the elite part Chris....you and I both, mate. I might leave that suggestion out of any future sales pitch though.

Remember too that price is a total guess by me, not the manufacturer, at this stage. Could be more or less....though I doubt by much of a margin either way.

 

[treesandsurf]

Reg do you really want constructive criticism or do you want more applauds and pats on the back? You decide what you're open to hearing.

The GRCS and HOBBS have done really well in the market (esp. the GRCS) worldwide for a good reason. As has the port a wrap. From my conversations with people in europe and other parts of the world the stein devices haven't exactly taken off. Maybe I'm off here??? To me it looks like too many moving parts and a clunky setup. It doesn't matter what a few tree fanatics on a forum think, it matters how well it sells to the market in a broad sense. I'm offering to you that there are some shortcomings there I see in terms of complication and too many moving pieces to appeal to a broader market. Maybe I'm wrong, would be stoked if I am.

jp

 

[MasterBlaster]

I love it! It's an awesome new tool!

 

[bonner1040]

I think the new RCW will do really well. It's for sure true that fixed bollards don't have a lot of market share here in the US, but in UK/Europe it's a different story altogether.

I was as skeptical as you could be after seeing photos, but watching Reg, and listening to end-user feedback at the APF sold me! We ordered a BUNCH of them!

 

[RegC]

Reg do you really want constructive criticism or do you want more applauds and pats on the back? You decide what you're open to hearing.

The GRCS and HOBBS have done really well in the market (esp. the GRCS) worldwide for a good reason. As has the port a wrap. From my conversations with people in europe and other parts of the world the stein devices haven't exactly taken off. Maybe I'm off here??? To me it looks like too many moving parts and a clunky setup. It doesn't matter what a few tree fanatics on a forum think, it matters how well it sells to the market in a broad sense. I'm offering to you that there are some shortcomings there I see in terms of complication and too many moving pieces to appeal to a broader market. Maybe I'm wrong, would be stoked if I am.

jp

Mate, I said earlier that constructive criticism was welcome, you already quoted that in an earlier post that you made, so why are you asking me again ? I never once suggested that people pat me on the back, so I dont get that part either. Its an open discussion, so say whatever comes to mind, so long as its honest it doesnt matter

To truly determine how many Stein devices we've sold in 5 years or so, you'd ether have to ask the company directly, or thousands of arborists the world over.....as is we've sold thousands. If that wasnt true, we wouldnt still be running with it, let alone throwing away good money after bad with a new device. Make sense ? I make conscious effort in not giving too much thought about the portawrap, GRCS and Hobbs, or how well they've done or continue to do. If we did focus on everyone else business we probably woulda never gotten off the ground to start with. The too many moving parts you talked about, well theres reason and justification for that and its explained in the video....and essentially it is still a one man operation that will come in at a very cost effective price. I dont and never would expect everyone to like it though.

Also, to label the guys who post on the forums as fanatics is also a little unfair. Certainly no fanaticism that Ive picked up on in this thread, just normal treeworkers....yet this thread alone has picked up over 2500 views in no time at all. Now I doubt very much thats just the people who've posted re-checking the thread a hundred times a day, or active members who didnt post even. The better forums have a lot more scope and significance than what you might think. There's lots treeworkers, manufacturers and dealers out there that just read but don't join. I would know that to be true because Im very much involved with these individuals or groups of people. Thanks

 

[cory]

 

[treesandsurf]

Again, I could be way off base here and I certainly hope for the sake of your time/investment and Stein's as well I am. I'm giving you my initial thoughts having watched the video of how it's setup and operated. In real life it may perform in a way that doesn't parallel how I envision it to work having watched the vids.

Use what ever term you feel comfortable with; the point was that guys/gals who spend their "off" time on tree forums for a number of different reasons doesn't necessarily reflect people working in the tree industry as a whole. That was the point I was trying to convey.

jp

 

[woodworkingboy]

Jon, I'm unclear why you say that people spending time at the forum are not a good representation of the industry. Do you mean the people that don't post, a guess as to who they are? My impression has always been that amongst the people that participate, although the number of individuals may be not so large, there is very good representation of the trade. Probably there are more business owners that are active, than employed workers, I kind of assume that. What type of people would be more representative of the industry as a whole?

 

[treesandsurf]

Jay that opinion is based on experience working with different companies and getting a decent amount of exposure to the guys working in the field. The majority of the guys that I personally interact with either don't have the money, time, education, or desire to invest in researching the various tools and techniques available to tree workers that are so commonly discussed and expounded upon in most tree forums online. For that reason, I believe the attitudes, outlooks, and perspectives of people that do have those resources literally at their fingertips (pun intended), aren't the best reflection of a very large group of people that work with trees day in and day out.

When I watched the video I thought to myself, hey I could figure this all out and probably operate it just fine, but would I hand it over to a crew of guys I subcontract with and be confident in their use and ability to navigate and confidently operate the different functions....not sure. Reg expressed his success in that regard so obviously he feels confident about that and I know he encounters the same type of scenarios I'm bringing up. I just have a hard time imagining it.

jp

 

[RegC]

Again, I could be way off base here and I certainly hope for the sake of your time/investment and Stein's as well I am. I'm giving you my initial thoughts having watched the video of how it's setup and operated. In real life it may perform in a way that doesn't parallel how I envision it to work having watched the vids.

Use what ever term you feel comfortable with; the point was that guys/gals who spend their "off" time on tree forums for a number of different reasons doesn't necessarily reflect people working in the tree industry as a whole. That was the point I was trying to convey.

jp

Use whatever term Im comfortable with ? I didnt use any term. Im just not getting what youre on about. And not sure what you want me to say? I answered your questions as best as I could already, yet you didnt answer mine....instead you just seemed to ignore everything I said I get that you dont like it dude, and Im cool with that

The video that I put out was clearly not in a working environment or real situation. It was just a basic introduction, leaving the rest to peoples imagination as to whether its at all suitable to their individual needs, or not. There will be more to follow, but in good time. Being that Ive been very much hands-on involved in designing and selling equipment over the last 7 years, both with Stein and before that.....I think Im suitably experienced and informed enough to decide whether a given product is salable and worth pursuing, or not. We're not first timers going into this with a blinkered and naive approach. Consider that Ive been using a prototype for over a year now....and a fair bit of investment has already gone in from myself and Stein. We werent waiting purely for forum feedback this last week, so to then decide whether to go ahead or not. Same as all the previous products and those of other undoubtedly.....the decision to pursue something is made far in advance of going public.

 

[woodworkingboy]

Jon, it is an interesting point, the divide between people that are aware and capable in finding equipment to better facilitate their work, and the ones that don't have an interest or the necessary resources, etc. It probably also ties in with some deeper aspects of the degree of association with the work. When i stop and think about it, the people I am familiar with in my little corner, what you say is true in that regard. I'm not so clear on the more sophisticated equipment, but as Reg alludes to, the market for tree work related goods in general, seems quite large, especially in the countries where you have companies putting out multi page catalogues and many product websites of goods where r and d and marketing costs themselves run into a lot of money. No point if there isn't going to be a return on the investment.

 

[treesandsurf]

yet you didnt answer mine....instead you just seemed to ignore everything I said I get that you dont like it dude, and Im cool with that

I didn't see a question anywhere in your reply(s)?

The point I'm on here is that I think the route you/stein took in developing a winch (lifting operation) external of the bollard although innovative in this application, I see as a downside for a number of different reasons. Again I could be very wrong. And yes I heard your explanations about why you went that route, I just don't agree with them.

And you are right, I don't have 7 years developing and selling equipment/products so I am naive in that sense. I'm just someone who uses products in the field. If you wanted to showcase a new product without any criticisms you should have stated that from the get go. But you asked for constructive criticism, I offered it and you came back with "the decision has already been made to decide whether to go ahead or not." So obviously you're done with it so why ask? I'm really not clear on what you're on about here?

And if you don't want to hear or don't like my opinion on that then please have MB delete my posts and move on with "regularly scheduled programming".

jp

 

[treesandsurf]

especially in the countries where you have companies putting out multi page catalogues and many product websites of goods where r and d and marketing costs themselves run into a lot of money. No point if there isn't going to be a return on the investment.

Yes very true and an excellent point. This ties back to product development and marketing, which I'm pretty much ignorant to.

My hunch would be that companies like DMM that cater to the very people I described in my earlier post, improve upon or re-develop products/equipment that are already common in all tree workers arsenals (carabiners, blocks, harnesses etc.) and put them in a higher price bracket. That is not what Stein is doing here. They are developing a product that although has the same outcome as other products on the market, has a completely different approach to getting to that outcome. So they are taking a much bigger gamble in my estimation. Whether that pays off or not, time will tell.

jp

 

[RegC]

I didn't see a question anywhere in your reply(s)?

The point I'm on here is that I think the route you/stein took in developing a winch (lifting operation) external of the bollard although innovative in this application, I see as a downside for a number of different reasons. Again I could be very wrong. And yes I heard your explanations about why you went that route, I just don't agree with them.

And you are right, I don't have 7 years developing and selling equipment/products so I am naive in that sense. I'm just someone who uses products in the field. If you wanted to showcase a new product without any criticisms you should have stated that from the get go. But you asked for constructive criticism, I offered it and you came back with "the decision has already been made to decide whether to go ahead or not." So obviously you're done with it so why ask? I'm really not clear on what you're on about here?

And if you don't want to hear or don't like my opinion on that then please have MB delete my posts and move on with "regularly scheduled programming".

jp

Then look again at my first reply to you. Look for the '?'

I'll even repeat one even as you seem to keep making the same point without cause - where did I ever write that I didn't want to hear any criticism?

And why would I want mb to delete your posts ? So there's mo mix up. I don't want mb to delete anything. Relax brother.

 

[emr]

I agree with Jon on some of his criticisms. I think the winch looks like it would get in the way when placing the rope around the bollard as well as when you're removing the the rope. I think it might be even worse when you have winter gloves on.

IMO, it also looks like it would be pretty inconvenient to pull the winch line out and install it, and then pack it all up and put it out of the way after your done with it.

I have also always wondered about the purpose of the "safety" sling below the device. I'm not aware of any other lowering device on the market that has that. It seems like an unnecessary step that does really serve a purpose.

I'm a port a wrap and GRCS guy I have plenty of gripes about those as well. I don't think there is a perfect device out there but unfortunately I will not be giving this Stein a try in my rigging operations.

 

[sawman]

What gripe do you have about portawrap?
Just curious

 

[emr]

Too floppy and the barrel isn't big enough in diameter.

 

[RegC]

I agree with Jon on some of his criticisms. I think the winch looks like it would get in the way when placing the rope around the bollard as well as when you're removing the the rope. I think it might be even worse when you have winter gloves on.

IMO, it also looks like it would be pretty inconvenient to pull the winch line out and install it, and then pack it all up and put it out of the way after your done with it.

I have also always wondered about the purpose of the "safety" sling below the device. I'm not aware of any other lowering device on the market that has that. It seems like an unnecessary step that does really serve a purpose.

I'm a port a wrap and GRCS guy I have plenty of gripes about those as well. I don't think there is a perfect device out there but unfortunately I will not be giving this Stein a try in my rigging operations.

Nothing unfortunate about it, just the way it is....your decision that is. Managing the winch line is more work than that of a grcs, clearly....but still much less work than setting a 5:1 that many people have and still do with Porty's and the more basic bollards. If a user feels the winch is impeding his convenience to put wraps in and off the bollard, just pull the winch off, it only takes a second. I wouldn't expect a GRCS owner to switch to a stein.

The choker at the bottom is for back up. I've seen several pics of grcs' incorrectly mounted and sent flying up a spar to meet the climber. The last incident I heard of was in Australia where a climber was seriously hurt. Granted, it wasn't a grcs, rather a home made device, but a similar strap mounting system. A strap alone doesn't choke, rather it just tightens to where ever its positioned. If it slips from that positioned due to trunk taper or something, its not going to hold. While these incidents are few and far between, as the designer I'm not leaving something like that to chance. If people choose to ignore the choker that's fine, but at least I won't be held accountable in the event if a mishap. Try and see it from our point if view.

I have no problem with Jon's criticisms and dislikes, I said as much, even gave him the thumbs up at one stage. Its his insistence that I've somewhere suggested that I don't want criticism in this thread that has me confused. I'm trying my to answer clearly.