Need Help from the "Big Saw" Guys

[Al Smith]

The only chain I ever had a problem with is that stuff Baileys sell,Arbor Pro or whatever .I unwittingly filed a 10 up compound angle like Oregon "72" but the design of the cutter would not support it .It took good old "Crofter " to show me the errors of my ways .That was round chisel not square .

 

[Al Smith]

I little trick if you don't have a vise .Sink the saw partly into a round and file away .

 

[RopeArmour]

Bar groove splayed open?

 

[ClimbMIT]

I've posted this many times, but I'll do it again for those who haven't seen it. Having a right proper filing station makes all the difference to me.

Nice set up Butch. Good thread and info

 

[MasterBlaster]

Thanks! I use it all the time.

 

[murphy4trees]

If he does a lot of crane work, laying those heavy pieces down on the bar can be a problem.. need a heavier duty bar..

 

[sierratree]

Does this happen with any tree species, or just a particular one ? Are you using full comp or skip chain? Are the trees you're cutting pretty much out in the woods, or in a developed area, or where there might be alot of target shooting...........Once I found a 45 slug in the center of a 40"er we dropped near a campgrond. Other than that, the raker height would make sense why the chain would bog down.

 

[Jed]

Does this happen with any tree species, or just a particular one ? Are you using full comp or skip chain? Are the trees you're cutting pretty much out in the woods, or in a developed area, or where there might be alot of target shooting...........Once I found a 45 slug in the center of a 40"er we dropped near a campgrond. Other than that, the raker height would make sense why the chain would bog down.

Hey sierra: This was on Cottonpigs, full skip, developed area, although, I'm pretty sure that we--for once--didn't hit any metal. As Stumper said, "This one's a bumfuzzler." But yeah, at this point: I'm blaming inconsistent height between the right and left hand stops.

Rope Armour: Thanks for the suggestion. That's where I was going when I typed up this thread. It's my opinion that when people who round-file, hog out too much side-plate--as Chris does--and use a more aggressive top-plate angle than the little laser-engraved indicator, they're asking for trouble. Those drivers (on a 66) just pull way too hard on either side of the bar groove, ultimately slowing things down. Haven't proven it yet though.

Squish: Yeah, I gave him a minor chew-out today for the super acute "beaks" that the sideplates of his chains always show. Him: "I know, I know..." Weird how set in their ways guys get.

Daniel: Man, he used to do a TON of crane work in Philly. We seldom have the luxury for one out here.

Stumper: Thanks very much for the suggestion regarding uneven wear on the tie-straps themselves. Hadn't thought of THAT one before. Man, there's a ton of stuff that can go wrong.....


Butch: Thanks again for the shot of the vise. I recently welded one to the fender of my chipper. But, life's way more better.

 

[Cold Logging]

Cottonwood is kindof a nightmare tree on bars and chains. . Far worse than wet red cedar. . Rope Armor. Got the last piece of the problem. . His over aggressive filing has caused the bar to wear out Inside the groove. . The over aggressive angles combined with a half wore out chain and a wore bar groove will stop things in a hurry. It gets majnified from the bar and chain being hot and the wood swells. Seriously. . For cottonwood, to get the most consistent ease of cutting. I figure on a 50% bar life compared to other wood. Same with the chain. When the cutters are half wore out that chain gets replaced with new.

For the doubters. Let that cottonwood freeze solid. ( pretty easy here) and the same bar and chain will cut it with very little trouble.

The best chain for cottonwood IMO is 404. . Simple because it cuts a wider kerf and the bar floats thru. Same with red cedar wet wood.

 

[Cold Logging]

I really advocate the Carlton Filo Plate for taking down depth gauges. ( riders, takers, ect.) .
If you have a bar rail roller and a bar rail grinder they can help extend a bars life.
And of coures set the oiler to MAX output. .

That over aggressive fileing and taking the riders down too far/ in evenly. Is hard on mounts, crank seals and bearings. And the operator. . Fast cutting is not nessesarily rough cutting.

 

[gf beranek]

There's so many good tips that get passed around in these internet forums that I wonder just how much of it really sinks into the minds of the young'uns that visit them. The wealth of information that is passed around on the internet forums today is a pure gold mine.

Us old-timers know that it was a struggle in our day to have access to good, and ready, information. I learned through trial and error mostly. Sad to say, but some of the old-timers I worked under weren't as good as they preached. Some were excellently skilled but incapable teachers because they couldn't put their understanding into words. I learned a little bit of everything from everyone one of them, right or wrong, and collectively it started making sense to me. I have followed my path. Now, whether any of us pursue to become better skilled over time is a matter of our dedication.

I love it!

 

[HolmenTree]

There's so many good tips that get passed around in these internet forums that I wonder just how much of it really sinks into the minds of the young'uns that visit them. The wealth of information that is passed around on the internet forums today is a pure gold mine.

Us old-timers know that it was a struggle in our day to have access to good, and ready, information. I learned through trial and error mostly. Sad to say, but some of the old-timers I worked under weren't as good as they preached. Some were excellently skilled but incapable teachers because they couldn't put their understanding into words. I learned a little bit of everything from everyone one of them, right or wrong, and collectively it started making sense to me. I have followed my path. Now, whether any of us pursue to become better skilled over time is a matter of our dedication.

I love it!

Well said Jerry,
I've learned a lot of tricks from the old school 1950-60s hand fallers [when they were in their prime] here on the plains, and these guys could barely speak English because they were from French speaking Quebec. Quebec here in Canada has produced seasoned loggers since the 17th century if not earlier. A lot of these loggers ended up in the PNW where their kin still log today.
I learned from them not from speaking but from working with them, you get more work done when you and your partner are not talking.
The only time I round file past the 30 degree top plate laser mark is when the cutters are getting filed down close to them. Even a slight bar rail spread will cause a small filed cutter chain to cut shitty "on and off again". Simple remedy is file 40 degree top plate and end of problem, and inbred.....the extra top angle doesn't cause the drive links to slow everthing down.
Yes when the cutters are new it may be a problem wearing the drive link tangs and rails out faster.
Progressive depth gauge lowering with a file o plate is a definite bonus! .025 new- cutter, .040 when the cutters are down to the laser witness marks. I just use a old school Oregon adjustable gaugit.

 

[gf beranek]

Thanks, Willard. You've been a progressive tradesman throughout your career, and have advanced to training the profession. You, having come from the old school, have a more rounded sense of the trade to pass on. I love your attention to saw and chain specs, it's impeccable.

 

[HolmenTree]

Thanks Jerry I try my best......safety is always the first thing on my mind that I want to pass on to the green horns who are willing to learn.

 

[RopeArmour]

Something else I seem to always forget to do is to change/drop the file size as the tooth wears.
That may contribute as well

 

[MasterBlaster]

I've never done that.

 

[cory]

Is that just on the square chisel stuff? I've never done that either on round chisel

 

[Cold Logging]

No way of knowing. But it wouldn't surprise if every good tip that's given didn't cost the giver 20 or 30 lbs, 10-15 kg of sweat. . In my case some times double that. . I sweat a lot and I'm not too bright.

 

[RopeArmour]

helps to hold a sharper angle/more accute. Better cutting.
Difference can be seen in the ribbons for sure.
Ever wonder why as you sharpen and the tooth gets shorter and shorter so does the ribbon?
It was only a few yrs ago I reread a manual and it finally registered.

 

[Cold Logging]

Is that just on the square chisel stuff? I've never done that either on round chisel

It helps to go down a size at the half way point.
But chisel files pretty much come in 1 size. Tho some goofy files I have used are a bit thicker than others. Back when guys were still running 5/8 pitch chain chisel files could be got for different size chain.

Very seldom do I run a chain down to the nubs. Usually I hang it up before it gets to the witness marks. . The condition of the drivers has as much to do with when I hang an old chain up. When I'm bushlin I only use the first 60% of the cutters.. I will give my old chains to some firewood cutter.

 

[HolmenTree]

Something else I seem to always forget to do is to change/drop the file size as the tooth wears.
That may contribute as well

When 8 hr day logging we fallers always went from 7/32" round file to 13/64" [even smaller 5mm] when the chain got down to 1/2 cutter size. But having said that we touched up our cutters regularly through out the day when on piecework production and the smaller file size drop speeded things up.

One or two tree a day arb work is different story , now I just use 7/32" file right to the witness mark, got more time to file now and just put more down pressure on the file to clear the gullet when the cutters get small.
Bigger gullet is the best for optimum chip flow and clearance .......especially when the cutters are small and arb cutting conditions are not as predictable as they are when logging on piecework.

 

[woodworkingboy]

Could help to think about what conditions you are cutting in, whether to go to a smaller file or not. A larger file will give a somewhat blunter and stronger edge for working at the base where you are likely going to encounter some dirt. There is that optimum hook angle for the fastest cutting, I usually just look at how much file is above the top of the remaining tooth to decide what size to use. It's only a rule of thumb, but I think an adequate one. All woodworking tool edge angles are generally a compromise. The degree of smoothness of the surface left doesn't so much apply to chainsaws though, for most guys, speed is the priority with the thought to edge durability, I believe.

 

[HolmenTree]

The "rule" with round filed saw chain is the proper file position is 1/10 the file diameter above the cutting edge throughout the cutters life.
Be careful with the "rule of thumb theory" ..............all that means is "learned from experience , but not proven by science".

 

[RopeArmour]

Cutters are based on the inclined plane /wedge/chisel

 

[Cold Logging]

. I got another of those Oregon round file, filing guides this summer for teaching my ground guys how to file. It worked very good to help them get a chain that would actually cut. It held the file somewhere around 10% above the top of the cutter. . It definatly paid for itself . Once they took a chain they knew didn't cut worth a hoot and made it so it cut pretty good all by themselves they were a lot more interested in their work.