Lumberjack Correspondence Course

[rfwoody]

Thanks Sean.

Yes, thanks!.... Need. To. Practice. Running. Bowline.

I have a 1/2" stable braid and 9/16" stable braid.

There is a very critical tree coming up that (because of that Pecan Tree fiasco) I am going to go overkill by maybe at least 5 times.... I'm going to put at least 2 of these big ropes in it..... one to truck and one to Maasdam... and possibly a third with a simple 3:1 for manual pulling.

haha, I intend to go WAY overkill on anything critical until I sharpen/dial-in my sense of forces, etc.

Clarification, please, Sean.... what means:

"......pull both ends over for a base-tie, and lol the night over your tow-ball......"

you are describing some sort of simple 2:1 ?

Thanks!


Sean... saw this late.....

I was shaving bark so I could better see where I was cutting exactly.... and I intend(ed) to *mark* where my hinge sides was going to be........I will be looking at the wood fibers now too. Thanks.

Yes, I have a few stumps over there to practice notches and hinge gutting on.

Yes. Thanks. Every tree is a chance to shoot for perfection.

Thanks again.

 

[Burnham]

Robert, with a mess of tangled limbs on a smallish tree, just loft the throwline over center of the whole thing, drag your pull rope over the top, and tie off that running bowline to the trunk on the opposite side of the lay. Haul out all the slack and put plenty of tension on it before you make any cuts, so as to set the pull rope well into the crown, then let off some tension...then cut and proceed as before.

 

[SeanKroll]

Pics or address of the tree coming up?


Advice, written down before hand (helps to ingrain, even if not reviewed), will be more better than retrospective advice.


P.S. healthy wood is strong as heck. Remember that.

It's really not about pull harder. Pull harder makes up for a lack of finesse.

 

[Marc-Antoine]

Clarification, please, Sean.... what means:
"......pull both ends over for a base-tie, and lol the night over your tow-ball......"
you are describing some sort of simple 2:1 ?

("lol the night" )
Not a MA, it gives like a rope two times stronger (you pull the same way on both legs). That doesn't modify your pulling force, but you are less likely to break your rope with the truck (don't push it too far tough).

A bunch of 2 cents :

The problem with the yellow hitch is its way too long legs. Keep them as short as possible with this one (or use a "self contained" hitch, like the blue one or a knut or ...). The long legs in your hitch allowed the coiled part to unravel and become a straight line with almost zero friction power. You made plenty of turns around the white line, so the hitch ended with still enough to hold the load, but you lost a substantial amount of grip. The risk is that the hitch begins to slip under high load, heats, melts and finally gives up.

I don't like to use the shackle directly with the bare rope. The U part is fine, as long as the steel is nice and smooth. The issue (for me) is the junction between the U and the bolted part. Under load, the rope slides toward the corner and the fibers are pulled along some sharp edges (holes of the U and maybe first thread of the bolt).
Pulling a stump with the Maasdam (2/1 MA), I nicked the protective cover of a round sling like that. The fabric was even stuck in the tiny gap between the two parts of the shackle. You don't want to do that with a rope.

An other point is the big carabiner for the Maasdam's anchor. One leg of the red sling pulls on the biner at a place not designed for that : just near the gate. That's not really a concern due to the high rating of the biner, but the load must apply at the small radius to keep the max resistance.
For the Maasdam's anchor, I use a 1 ton x 2 m round sling with a delta link, either in basket or chocked mode. The large part of the delta takes one or both legs of the sling and the Maasdam's hook (or your trapezoidal biner) comes in the tight angle.

For pulling to the lay, you don't need to have the rope directly in line with the intended lay. Actually, the rope can have a good angle. The main actor for the lay is the hinge. You may have to compensate the partial side load by the rope, but the hinge is the chief. The rope helps "only" to make the thing moving at the beginning, it doesn't put the tree where you want. So the straight in line isn't mandatory.
Just keep in mind that if you pull with an angle, you loose some effective pulling force (the sin/cos story strikes again ).

Beside of that, congrats for your cuts. I'd wish that all mines come clean like that. Keep on the training !

 

[SeanKroll]

The maasdam hook is strong.

You don't want the tree directly in line, therefore on top of the pull rope after the fall, 5* is ok. More, too.

When hand pulling, once committed, try to flick the rope out from under the tree.

 

[Stumpshot]

Hey Robert, I never told you -- I LOVE this thread title. Charles Atlas memories come welling up... Or Farmer Burns from an even earlier era.

 

[Jonny]

Keep a 5' piece of practice rope next to the can

 

[Stumpshot]

Before I got the CDL, I was the rider, not the driver. So I had 2 lengths of cotton cording and would practice knots on the 30-45 min drives.

 

[rfwoody]

Robert, with a mess of tangled limbs on a smallish tree, just loft the throwline over center of the whole thing, drag your pull rope over the top, and tie off that running bowline to the trunk on the opposite side of the lay. Haul out all the slack and put plenty of tension on it before you make any cuts, so as to set the pull rope well into the crown, then let off some tension...then cut and proceed as before.

Thanks a lot Mr. Burnham! Thanks for those details!

Pics or address of the tree coming up?


Advice, written down before hand (helps to ingrain, even if not reviewed), will be more better than retrospective advice.


P.S. healthy wood is strong as heck. Remember that.

It's really not about pull harder. Pull harder makes up for a lack of finesse.

Thanks Sean!

"...written down before hand..." !!

"...will be more better than retrospective advice."

But it is a cycle, right? .... retrospective... learning from mistakes and fine tuning skills, etc. ?


YES.... I plan on opening a new thread on this one critical tree later this week. thanks.

got to leave now... plan to pick up on Marc's post later. thanks!

 

[sotc]

I agree, much better than before. Couple things I noticed. First tree, if it was set back or you needed more pull, as mentioned, get the pull point higher! At least halfway. Couldn't tell if it was needed for the first tree. Second tree had head lean, shouldn't have needed the pull line, but not bad that you had it. Still, higher would be better. That said, too much pretension on a tree that doesn't need it can cause other problems, only pull as hard as needed to do the job. Another observation, you're not using the dogs on your saw. If you dog in on the near side (level of course side to side as well as tilt) and cut till you're in gun, you have a straight line. if you dog in, cut half way to gun, pull the dogs and reach around, you have just created a radiused hinge that you need to fix, it looks like you did that. Stand up some short logs and practice making face cuts this way. You don't even need to practice back cuts, make faces all around and up and down these pieces. If your saw doesn't have dogs on it, go get another saw.

 

[SeanKroll]

WorkSafe BC youtube videos for tree work are useful resources, btw.

ArborPod youtube videos are also useful resources.

 

[rfwoody]

("lol the night" )
Not a MA, it gives like a rope two times stronger (you pull the same way on both legs). That doesn't modify your pulling force, but you are less likely to break your rope with the truck (don't push it too far tough).

A bunch of 2 cents :

The problem with the yellow hitch is its way too long legs. Keep them as short as possible with this one (or use a "self contained" hitch, like the blue one or a knut or ...). The long legs in your hitch allowed the coiled part to unravel and become a straight line with almost zero friction power. You made plenty of turns around the white line, so the hitch ended with still enough to hold the load, but you lost a substantial amount of grip. The risk is that the hitch begins to slip under high load, heats, melts and finally gives up.

I don't like to use the shackle directly with the bare rope. The U part is fine, as long as the steel is nice and smooth. The issue (for me) is the junction between the U and the bolted part. Under load, the rope slides toward the corner and the fibers are pulled along some sharp edges (holes of the U and maybe first thread of the bolt).
Pulling a stump with the Maasdam (2/1 MA), I nicked the protective cover of a round sling like that. The fabric was even stuck in the tiny gap between the two parts of the shackle. You don't want to do that with a rope.

An other point is the big carabiner for the Maasdam's anchor. One leg of the red sling pulls on the biner at a place not designed for that : just near the gate. That's not really a concern due to the high rating of the biner, but the load must apply at the small radius to keep the max resistance.
For the Maasdam's anchor, I use a 1 ton x 2 m round sling with a delta link, either in basket or chocked mode. The large part of the delta takes one or both legs of the sling and the Maasdam's hook (or your trapezoidal biner) comes in the tight angle.

For pulling to the lay, you don't need to have the rope directly in line with the intended lay. Actually, the rope can have a good angle. The main actor for the lay is the hinge. You may have to compensate the partial side load by the rope, but the hinge is the chief. The rope helps "only" to make the thing moving at the beginning, it doesn't put the tree where you want. So the straight in line isn't mandatory.
Just keep in mind that if you pull with an angle, you loose some effective pulling force (the sin/cos story strikes again ).

Beside of that, congrats for your cuts. I'd wish that all mines come clean like that. Keep on the training !

Marc, thanks for all the detailed comments/corrections/advice.

I think I will be changing my Maasdam's anchor! ...... and I need to see what is the application for those "D" shaped steel carabiners..... since evidently not for this!

ha, yeah, trigonometry, vectors, etc. are cool!

The maasdam hook is strong.

You don't want the tree directly in line, therefore on top of the pull rope after the fall, 5* is ok. More, too.

When hand pulling, once committed, try to flick the rope out from under the tree.

ha, I know you are right about the maasdam hook.... but I've already replaced it for the carabiner.... and it gives me a little extra peace of mind since it is *locked* closed instead of just a spring gate, right?

great advice on the rope, Sean!

Hey Robert, I never told you -- I LOVE this thread title. Charles Atlas memories come welling up... Or Farmer Burns from an even earlier era.

haha, thanks Stumpshot

yeah, I remember Charles Atlas.. maybe just at the tail end of my dad's generation earlier.... ha, Farmer Burns must have been before my time!

yeah, I guess I was thinking "satire"... more Mad magazine (the old magazine from the 50's and early 60's) ... but I hoped the sentiment wasn't out of line or too "cute" for this dangerous line of work and me being a noob asking questions and getting real, solid help from a lot of experienced (and many "old") pros.
... but that is sort of what it seemed/s like

Before I got the CDL, I was the rider, not the driver. So I had 2 lengths of cotton cording and would practice knots on the 30-45 min drives.

Keep a 5' piece of practice rope next to the can

ha, now THAT is a PRACTICAL idea!! .... I'll hang it from the towel rack in front!

I agree, much better than before. Couple things I noticed. First tree, if it was set back or you needed more pull, as mentioned, get the pull point higher! At least halfway. Couldn't tell if it was needed for the first tree. Second tree had head lean, shouldn't have needed the pull line, but not bad that you had it. Still, higher would be better. That said, too much pretension on a tree that doesn't need it can cause other problems, only pull as hard as needed to do the job. Another observation, you're not using the dogs on your saw. If you dog in on the near side (level of course side to side as well as tilt) and cut till you're in gun, you have a straight line. if you dog in, cut half way to gun, pull the dogs and reach around, you have just created a radiused hinge that you need to fix, it looks like you did that. Stand up some short logs and practice making face cuts this way. You don't even need to practice back cuts, make faces all around and up and down these pieces. If your saw doesn't have dogs on it, go get another saw.

Thanks Willie.

and since you noticed, Willie, (and all), here is how I have been making my face cuts:

(1) (from right side of tree facing lay) Use gunning sight to point to (desired) lay and make my diagonal "down" cut first.... since lay direction is established... main goal is to wind up at proper *depth* AND have bottom of cut dead *level*.
(2) (still from same side) Now I can turn my saw so bar is (theoretically) dead level with the edge of cut and dogs in bark and pivot the saw on the dogs --- looking through the kerf created by my diagonal cut through to the other side so I can (theoretically) see when the end of my bar reaches around to the other side of my diagonal cut.
(3) and if done perfectly.... I would end up a perfect "notch" of wood on the ground and on the tree two perfect planes meeting in a perfect level union for the face cut.

and this seems to be working for me.... but I see a (theoretical anyway) advantage to making the level cut first.... but then I wouldn't be able to look through the diagonal cut to see when the end of the bar meets the other side.....

thanks for any feedback.

WorkSafe BC youtube videos for tree work are useful resources, btw.

ArborPod youtube videos are also useful resources.

Yeah, thanks Sean.

Those WorkSafe BC videos were among the first I found and watched... some several times... it seems they have about 14 (?) or so on timber cutting/bucking, etc.
and I've watched many (nearly all?) of the ArborPod videos too.... need to go back and watch them some more.

it is knowledge PLUS hands-on experience ... like a cycle of feedback .... I find every time I go back and read or watch a book or video, -- or Treehouse post -- etc.... I learn more because I see things I missed the first (or second or third) time around because now more things are familiar and so more of the "dots" connect, etc., etc.
but I guess that's generally the nature of learning.... and more so at the beginning... where I am.

 

[stig]

Robert, the values of making either the diagonal or the horizontal cut first have been hashed over countless times here in the "house.

The West coasters do the horizontal first all us Euro types do the diagonal.

In my personal opinion there is absolutely no difference, once you master it.

I do belive, however, that making the diagonal first is easier to learn.

 

[rfwoody]

Thanks Stig!

 

[SeanKroll]

Anyone humboldt cut, sloping first?

As long as you get your hinge direction right, the first time without needing any fine-tuning correction, the sloping-cut-first will be as easy to hit the first time as horizontal first.

IMO, it's probably easier to accurately aim kerfs around defects, while getting your gun, and hinge position right, horizontal-first.

Steep ground, what do you think, Stig? Was seeing logging steep? Pulp?

Edit: Steep Ground, what do you think? Was Swiss logging steep? Pulp (versus saw logs)?

 

[rfwoody]

i'll need to practice that when the situation is right....

 

[stig]

Steep ground, what do you think, Stig? Was seeing logging steep? Pulp?

Sorry, Sean. I thought I had mastered English pretty good, but the above sentence makes no sense to me at all.?????????????????????????

 

[SeanKroll]

Autocorrect, small screen, small kid, lots of coffee.

Steep logging.

Was your Swiss experience in steep terrain?
Did that affect anything?

Was it pulp, saw logs, or both, or other? High altitude conifers or high latitude conifers seems like maybe pulp, maybe saw logs. I'm guessing it's mostly conifers in Switzerland.








If I'm on unstable footing, like standing on slippery, mossy roots, or steep ground, and can plant my dogs into the tree, and cut my horizontal cut enough to hold my saw, I can aim it wherever I want, if it start within 10-20 degrees of the lay.

I've wiped the F-out while standing on a big, wet buttress root with a big saw where I should have had 'corks'. By the time I was that far into the cut where I slipped, I had moved up onto the buttress root for position, with the saw sunk plenty deep in the kerf to just let it go when I fell. I went to the truck and got 'corks' on. That hurt.





I couldn't imagine doing high stumps with a sloping-cut first, as is common for better hinging in root-diseased trees, common up here, and to get over defects or crotches.

I can sight my gunning sight from below, on a horizontal-first cut, and an overhead humboldt isn't hard to cut, cleaning-out the face a bit, if necessary.

Easy to see if you're cutting will match, same as with a regular-height cut, horizontal-first. Just look down the horizontal kerf or look round the tree a bit.

I don't understand the thinking that sloping-cuts first somehow allow more sight of the bar. It's not hard to look. I often have to let go of the saw for a second to check the far-side hinge on a tight shot with obstacles. No big deal, IMO.

When you cut your sloping cut-second, the facecut will fall onto your bar if conventional (with a little lift of the saw to crack the little bit of fiber free, if not dead on),
or fall out of the cut when you're cut through, with a humboldt. Easy enough, and easier than wrestling out a heavy face-cut. Maybe people cut humbodlts with the sloping cut first, making that equal, either way. Never seen it in life or video.

 

[Graeme McMahon]

I've been absent from the forum for some time and am not sure if this has been covered.

The logging industry here regards the shallow, open scarfs (notches) and wedges placed immediately behind the hinge as a joke. Shallow notches here increase some risks to the faller and reduce tree control. The open (90 degree) notch provides no increase in safety or control to that of normal notches. Wedges placed immediately behind the hinge reduce safety and control of a back leaner. In our alpine forest where I work, any wedges placed there would be crushed into the stump or the tree would likely split up backwards. You certainly could not wedge the tree as is touted.

It has been introduced here some time ago by some poorly experienced arborist trainers. Despite my best efforts these arboricultural trainers will not engage with our timber industry trainers to align their training with that of the professional fallers. The substandard “arb” trainers use the anonymity of their international source as a form of shield for scrutiny.

I was told that the shallow scarf and other stuff have origins in Scandinavia. Does anyone know the origin of this (manurer)? I look to professional fallers in the country of origin to explain why it was devised and if it is used commercially? In addition if they consider it transferable to the hardwood trees in Victoria, Australia (arboriculture or logging)?

A “yes” answer to the last question, will create an invite to come over here and demonstrate how that all plays out. Alpine bush here is unforgiving unlike the armchair discussions for theorists.
Regards

 

[Graeme McMahon]

MB
If my post belongs in the logging forum put it there please. I didn't think that through.

Regards

 

[MasterBlaster]

What thread?

 

[SeanKroll]

Graeme, who supports hinges right behind the hinge?

Pounding wedges would wedge Up against the tension-strength of the wood rather that tip toward the face, and create a fulcrum on a back-leaner.

 

[Graeme McMahon]

What thread?

I saw the pics in this thread, looking for a loggers perspective regarding its origin and thought "The logging thread" however there is a lot of notch talk in "Question for Stig short..." and "Patron saint of bore..." / Tree felling and rigging. I look to you for such wisdom MB. I'm trying not to derail any thread.

 

[MasterBlaster]

If the OP doesn't complain, we don't much worry about derails here, brother.

Never worry about that.

 

[Graeme McMahon]

Graeme, who supports hinges right behind the hinge?

Pounding wedges would wedge Up against the tension-strength of the wood rather that tip toward the face, and create a fulcrum on a back-leaner.

Some arb training here is assessing this as part of faller competance. They also have trainees placing wedges in back release trees. The pitty is that there is a void between arb and logging faller training.

Your second comment spot on. It is at a mechanical disadvantage.