gonna try from the ground...

[MasterBlaster]

I can't picture it, either.

 

[SeanKroll]

The rope will cross other obstacles if let hold, perhaps trees.

I'd go with cut it, in either case. WAAAY safer. Nobody is going to get hands sucked into the LD. I don't think you will be letting it loose in a way that you think you will. From how far from the LD do you envision lessening the wraps.

 

[theTreeSpyder]

In my mind's eye
i pull before the fall to force more meat in the hinge, falslely overloading as to exercise hinge stronger; prepping soldier for has a big job ahead of it!
>>Pull tensions after tree is committed, i see as extra load then carried against this exercised strength.
kinda like >>we only had extra 40# in trainee backpack to make stronger in race, not to test/ carry thru actual race to actually slow down/but rather to handle lighter load in perspective/more gracefully within imbued power band!!
.
i pull to 2D(imension) to target for this strengthening exercise, not against sideLean (as a 3D force)
>>i generally see pulling against sideLean part of force as not exercising hinge stronger
>>see pulls against sideLean as temporarily unloading part of sideLean force while forming hinge>> so possibly forming hinge weaker
>>in the sense of opposite of loading hinge more to exercise stronger by inducing more load; offside(Dent) pulls against sideLean lessen loading, ballasting out part of sideLean to less of a 3rd dimensional pull on hinge(neutralizing to more of a 2D forward lean scenario).
>>in any case if all of pull force is to target instead of some 'wasted' against sideLean ; i think makes stronger hinge
.
Wedge lift to target does this automatically, when tree lifts, wedge push stops(force stronger then removes push to not load against forced strength); but with rope can continue force inputs further.
Pulls after tree committed to me are like keep cutting hinge backcut after committed
>>adjusting ratio of supports vs. loadings more against the supports side of argument!
.
i think generally want to force thicker hinge, then not load against it once tree moving, for greatest strength in hinge.
For sideLean: Tapered Hinge as ballast, made stronger/thicker by pulls to target; not made stronger by lessening sideLean while 'exercising' hinge before it's duty.
>>any Dutch Step effects as a later correction to an already in progress motion (hinge forces usher from start, before inertia force)
.
Pulling with rope against tree gives a leverage system;
i think feeding that force volume into hinge strength next; gives another stacked multiplier thru (especially tapered) hinge usage
>>that don't get when just directly pulling on tree.
.
There are exceptions; like if don't have 'command' of fall; and trying to reel it in at last minute; or trying to accelerate to punch thru obstructions etc.(i generally look for slower, controlled falls)
>>but in general think should exercise hinge stronger, then not tax against it once committed;
>>purposefully passing forces thru hinge to use it as further multiplier of input force
>>to then trust the math and mechanics to manage the massive tree-load on the single use hinge flap
>>especially when working against 3rd dimension/ sideLean , especially exemplified with Tapered Hinge to offside as a stacked multiplier.
.
inTree work same model; as actually carried cross/verified some of this carrying lessons down, not up!
...or something like that!

 

[Spellfeller]

The rope will cross other obstacles if let hold, perhaps trees.

Exactly. Lots of other trees in the way. I'll see if I can find a clearer path to route the line.

In my mind's eye...

I know there's a TON of wisdom here but alas, this is my inexperience trying to decipher it...

 

[Spellfeller]

I'll try to take some better pictures, if it ever stops raining!

Hope these put the tree in some context with its neighbors...

Standing in the downhill desired lay, looking uphill to the tree. Note side lean to the left of frame (neighbor's woodshed out of view in that direction) Regretfully, oak in the immediate foreground (top half of left side of frame) may have to be removed to create space.



90 degrees to the right of previous picture. No appreciable back lean.



Backing up on the "good" side, the tree in the foreground is the first option for a holding line anchor (Tree to be removed is in the center of frame in middle distance and would fall downhill to the left of the frame.) Holding line would have to released from here to avoid binding. Also a fairly steep angle to the target tree.



Moving slightly downhill on the good side and backing up to the other side of the drive, the tree at right edge of frame is second option for a holding line anchor. Same holds true for need to release holding line.



Changing perspective much from here moves the holding line further and further off 180 degrees from the lean.

 

[Tree09]

What exactly is at risk of being hit if it doesn't go perfectly to the lay? Are you sure you even need a side guy on that one? It's got side lean yes, but if the worst thing that could happen is that it might clip another tree, in a wooded setting, i would be very tempted to just pull it as is, with a slightly fatter or tapered hinge... maybe some of our more skilled guys can weigh in...

 

[Spellfeller]

The "negative outcomes" would be 1) falling to the lean and crushing the neighbors woodshed or 2) falling more toward the lay but getting hung up in the tops of neighboring trees, which then turns into a whole different problem.

To avoid #2 I'd want to remove anything that could entangle the crown, i.e., make sure that the oak had enough commitment to the lay before it ran into obstacles that it could crash through.

As far as #1, I'd feel a lot better if it were a sound trunk with plenty of hinge fiber to work with. I haven't done a drill sample or bore cut yet to see what's cooking in there, but I think it's a whole lot of nothing with just a ring of bark & cambium and maybe a little sapwood. I have a feeling the wood at height has more integrity, but the trunk seems sketchy. Sure would be easier to climb (if it were safe) and take off some of that weight on the bad side...

 

[SeanKroll]

You're a fly on an elephant's back, if you're not releasing huge pieces.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Well, to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say.

 

[Spellfeller]

Well, to be perfectly honest...I completely forgot what I was going to say.

That happens to you too?!

 

[MasterBlaster]

Only once in a while!

 

[Spellfeller]

You're a fly on an elephant's back, if you're not releasing huge pieces.

I want to believe, Sean!

Maybe I'll get some more estimates. In Oct of 2016, the two bids I got were $700 & $810. (A third guy recommended pruning, and the fourth didn't want to do it.) Can't remember if those numbers were for drop & leave or not. Regardless, it'll likely be more now, which buys a pretty big box of toys from TS...

If the pros say it's climbable, great. OTOH, if they start talking about bringing in their 36" wide spider lift that extends to 90' or setting a highline, etc. then I'll be back to the drawing board.

 

[DMc]

That tree does not look like a good candidate for a side line. Too many other trees too close. Better choices would be to climb up to the main crotch and strip off the limbs, then fall the trunk, or just set a rope and fall it as is. With the top being dead it does not have as much side lean force as it was used to supporting when green. It looks like it has a large, clean hinge area that if set right should hold.

Both of those choices have very little room for mistakes and do pose a significant risk. Is this something you are OK with?

 

[theTreeSpyder]

I understand there may be a scenario where you would actually need to slack the holding line as the tree falls but i sure can't picture it..... I always just keep the holding line at desired pretension and hold steady.

I can't picture it, either.

Well, to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say.

.

trying to decipher it...

.
i was offering counter view; that i think that the single use hinge machine; the works change when beast(magnificent tree) breathes/starts moving on hinge.
At that moment in time; system goes from prepping hinge for load exercise/ in gym, to actual load on hinge/ battlefield>>2 separate events, not to be blurred
.
Wedge push or rope pull would serve tree forward earlier, with thicker hinge than w/o these added forces (wedge/rope).
So, until moves we are falsely loading against hinge strength these extra forces, like one would work out or carry extra weight on a run
>>to fold earlier, thicker, to be stronger, have a power band that not only reaches but more engulfs your target task.
Hinge strength is not about thickness as number of fibers, add more fibers is only the nominal per-fiber strength increase in hinge
>>real control power increase comes from the leveraged position of the fibers; that is the thickness aspect that empowers
.
But, once tree is moving; extra backcutting takes away potential hinge support;
AND extra push/pulls at this point don't build more strength in hinge; but rather tax against said strength in my imagery.
.
i can see some exceptions like tree too light/not enough mass to commit, need speed for punching thru obstacle, living in Louisiana etc.
On some lighter/less leveraged length stuff i have continued the arm wrestle for more strength type rope pull almost to the ground for low shock, steering and experimentation; but trees(or same in tree for rigging) weren't ready to go on own, so muscled all the way down thru radius on hinge.
.
But in general would look at it like if had to lift 50# boxes at work all day; so worked out with 75# at home.
to broaden powerband against actual work; make stronger in case sick can still carry self (or unseen problem in tree)
>>but not to put exercise false loading on top of actual work to further test powerband in actual work situation.
.
If tree is at 15degree lean then face and backcut and allow to make own hinge thickness (no added wedge or rope force)
>>Will not make as thick a hinge/will not have the leverage as if same tree is at a 30degree lean and given same treatment.
They each set a hinge at the present leveraged lean; BUT that loading increases as fall progresses.
So a 15degree fall has further to go, with less hinge control leverage
>>so we make hinge think tree load is heavier by rope pull; makes thicker hinge in response/ tree folds earlier than would have otherwise
Tree now has beefier hinge, bluffed stronger.
>>15 degree pulled tree hinge will need to be thicker than 30degree natural hinge for same effect/support
>>because when 15degree tree hits 30degree mark it will be moving ; so will load more than if just stated falling at 30 degree lean
.
i think this is even more important when using tapered hinge to control sideLean; thicker Tapered Hinge has more leverage
AND radius of control bringing sideLean around.
.
So, i think pulling with rope when tree is on target anyway and will fall; taxes against hinge strength that exercised in
>>adjusts support to load ratio to more against support on the meter
If were going to force fall already moving against hinge strength with rope,might coulda on some days just left less hinge!
>>in balance of support vs. load ratio could be about the same (pulling to ground vs. just leaving less hinge)
.
The recruit should drag truck tire on exercise run to strengthen for tour of duty on gridiron or any other battlefield etc.
>>but shift gears once engaged and not carry extra training weight.
>>ditch extra weight, feel lighter and more 'super' to task>>engulfing not just reaching task with power
>>make fatter hinge, and once things are working, don't tax the working system w/extra load
.
Note:wedge does this Naturally;as tree lifts extra force is relieved.
>>some of olds-cool demand wedge push over rope pull for this reason

 

[pantheraba]

need speed for punching thru obstacle, living in Louisiana

Ha! Snuck in there!

Good explaining on hinge loads.

 

[Spellfeller]

Thanks, Kenny. I think you're recommending using wedges and a tapered hinge but no pull line.

Have I got that right?

 

[theTreeSpyder]

Note:wedge does this Naturally;as tree lifts extra force is relieved.
>>some of olds-cool demand wedge push over rope pull for this reason

.
Tapered Hinge for offside ballast of sideLean :YES
.
Pull line :YES more leverage than wedge, use wedge as safety, more pressure if needed.
.
Mostly saying after tree is committed to fall: should mimic wedge and stop input extra force of rope pulls
Once tree is moving smoothly, extra rope pulls are not forcing strength, but rather taxing against set strength.
.
At this stage, hinge is a 'leaf' spring; if ushered tree to ground and didn't tear off and you cut 90% of tree off ; 'stump' would probably stand up, showing spring tension.
.
More weight before tree moves is as lifting more weight exercise to make hinge thicker/stronger;
Consider hinge strength set when she moves
more back cut takes strength away, more pulls tax against strength.
.
ALSO, favor pull direction to target, not against sideLean;
once again favor allowing hinge to load/exercise stronger during it's forging don't make hinge weaker by carrying some of it's sideLean for it!
ALSO consider if pull to offSide against sideLean (or push to same with wedge) when rope pull or wedge push stop :
That relieved portion of sideLean IMPACTS back suddenly against hinge.
.
Also, if pull or wedge against sideLean, just getting that leveraged multiplier of your input(s) while exerted>>
vs. taking same multiplied effort, not fighting sideLean with it,but rather forcing stronger Tapered Hinge with extra force by pulling in target direction
A> this becomes another 'stacked' multiplier of your effort by routing the force thru the hinge leverage device before it controls sideLean(rather than fighting sideLean directly)
B>imbued hinge power starts at start of movement and persists until tearoff >> giving more and more tightening control, not less!
.
Don't baby the hinge during it's birthing; instead force and exercise it stronger;
>>make it carry it's own weight, leveraged sideLean,and then some>> make it stronger
Then baby hinge when actually in use by just asking it to handle massive tree load not any extra taxations of input forces.
.
Don't force runner to drag truck tire behind self in actual usage will work against runner
but if force runner to drag tire while forging strength pre-race, it can help by strength left in machinery of runner!

 

[chris_girard]

That tree does not look like a good candidate for a side line. Too many other trees too close. Better choices would be to climb up to the main crotch and strip off the limbs, then fall the trunk, or just set a rope and fall it as is. With the top being dead it does not have as much side lean force as it was used to supporting when green. It looks like it has a large, clean hinge area that if set right should hold.

Both of those choices have very little room for mistakes and do pose a significant risk. Is this something you are OK with?

Agreed.

Thoughts?

 

[Spellfeller]

Thanks, Kenny!

Chris, my main thinking on the side/holding line is that I'm not confident about this:

It looks like it has a large, clean hinge area that if set right should hold.

While I wish I had one of those Fancy Dan inspection cameras, I'm pretty sure that the base of the tree is hollow. I just bought a 12" x 1/8" bit yesterday and will try to get some "core samples" and measure resistance as I drill. Just not yet convinced that the amount of hinge wood is sufficient.

Also, if I could get assurances from someone with more experience than I that the wood's decay wasn't accelerated by hypoxylon canker (or some other nasty) and the tree was safe to climb, I'd feel a LOT better about the "climb & bomb" plan.

Essentially, the problem is that I'm an amateur who always seems to be tackling what August calls "bad trees." Largely, because those are the ones presenting the biggest hazards. After falling about 25 and wrecking exactly 3, my knowledge base is growing but every new one presents its own unique issues--at least to a guy at this stage in his learning curve...

 

[pantheraba]

I see lots of other tall trees nearby...perhaps a high line that lets you work off of it so you don't have to be "in the tree" you are taking down. They can be time consuming to set up but let you do the work without relying on the tree for life support. Just don't let any bombed limbs (or collateral tree movement) get involved with your high line.

 

[pantheraba]

My main lifeline was in a nearby tree for a high TIP. I ran the high line right beside the victim tree. I climbed the lifeline and then pulled myself over to the victim tree to do the work.

The tree I was taking down was falling over...root upheaval. I guyed it one day, returned next day to remove. Since the tree was failing I did not want to climb it...and could not have anyway,...too much ivy.

The high line let me position myself safely to drop limbs to lighten the load on the root system.

Climb to first work position on high TIP....use pulley on high line to traverse to make cut. Then traverse back away from ivy tree, climb to height of next cut, traverse and make cut. Wash, rinse, repeat.

Once I got several limbs off (and made sure the guy line was still happy) I was able to put some weight on the tree.

This method lets you work on a tree without actually being IN the tree.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/kUKTuV9kzKY" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[SeanKroll]

Take short videos...give 10 times the info to the TH.

 

[pantheraba]

Editing is a bitch. I figured that was too long for most people to want to watch but I got better things to do than edit it down to what I think somebody wants. Spell Feller can dig into it or not as he wishes it's just there.

 

[MasterBlaster]

If ANY vid is over 5 minutes I rarely watch it, but that's just me. I have a short attention span.

 

[SeanKroll]

Not you, Gary. I mean that he can take videos and post them if he wants better advice.

A drill test video, a video of the surroundings and surrounding trees, etc.