Does the back cut have to be higher than the bottom of the face?

[SouthSoundTree]

I've read allusions to a higher backcut making wedging more difficult, however I don't intuitively understand how it will be any different. Thoughts?

 

[woodworkingboy]

It sure seems like a too high back cut from the face, would have the wedges fighting against wood fighters more needing to bend before breaking. That would require more lift, and possibly not enough to get the tree going over, plus the resistance. Short grain is weaker and breaks a lot easier than long grain.
Maybe another way to see it is thinking that more pressure from the wedge is being absorbed by the fibers, than actually being transferred directly into the tree's movement, with the high bc.

 

[sierratree]

The taller the hinge, the stronger it becomes.....too tall and you can get past the point of diminishing returns........we're really talking about the height of the stumpshot, here........If the stumpshot is too tall, it's like having no hinge at all and simply cutting through the back of the tree: No fulcrum...... you end up cutting way past the apex of the gunning and sloping cuts of the undercut. And you wonder, "why isn't the tree tipping, yet", and your wedges are buried up to the hilt.......

 

[woodworkingboy]

Contrarily, some schools of thought actually teach that a higher back cut (too high) will increase the chance of the tree falling prematurely with an improper hinge. I'm not sure if this is a valid perspective. Indicated such, here:
http://www.wimlc.com/files/39477562.pdf

 

[Old Monkey]

The combination of a level backcut and a kneeling faller is not good.

The lack of stumpshot combined with lessened mobility of the operator will eventually bite you in the butt.

Andy, your original post concerns me for just the reasons that Stig innumerates.

 

[sawinredneck]

Which is why I asked the question! Sounds like I need to go a little higher in the woods!

 

[woodworkingboy]

Life needs general rules to keep things in perspective. A hinge should be 10% wide the diameter of the tree, and 2" above the apex for the back cut, don't covet the neighbor's wife, etc. Some things are more open to modification per situation, than others.

 

[gf beranek]

So much of what I put in the series 3 video was possible because of the skilled folks who frequent this forum. Accurate descriptions of method, and phenomena in this work are hard to put together by oneself. But with the help of all of you, your insights, experience and descriptions, it was easier for me to find the right words. It really is a collective work of all of us. But still far from ever being the last word for such a dynamic subject. Much more can certainly be added to it.

Keep up the good work and flow of knowledge. the internet is awesome!! Thanks!

 

[digga]

look forward to finding someone in the uk that will have series 3 for sale have allready learned so much from this forum and had some great advice thanks again guys

 

[gf beranek]

Tree Worker in the UK should have it soon. You might try egging them on a little bit.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Egg de bastid on!!!

 

[stig]

Good thing you aren't kneeling under this one, Andy!!
Wouldn't be much left of you.



I had plenty of stumpshot, so when the tree hit another one, it didn't come back off the stump.
I very carefully cut the part of the stump that was holding the tree into a sloping ramp and lifted the butt with a couple of wedges, until it slid off the stump.

I wish I was smarter, then I'd have remembered to take pictures while the tree was still on the stump.
On the other hand, if I was smarter, would I be a dumb logger?

 

[forestryworks]

Nice tree.

What kind of defect is that in the first log? Frost cracks?

 

[stig]

No it was marked for felling with a tool that cuts the bark away, like a ringshaped drawknife.
Then it was overlooked.
Those stripes cut into the bark don't show up very well unless they are real fresh.

The forest service stopped using spraypaint because of the fumes that were harmful to whoever sprayed the paint on the trees.
Then when we came to thin the stand, I'd grab a can and mark all the trees with paint, since it was impossible to plan the falling, when one could only find the marked trees by standing next to them.

It saves some time for us, that they gave up and went back to using paint.

Here is the tool, which was traditionally used for generations here.

 

[stig]

Just to freak out the west coasters:

I'm thinning that stand with a 441 and an 18" bar.
It is a bit slower than dragging the 660 and 24" bar around, but so much nicer on the body.

 

[Tucker943]

Ive actually cut below the apex of my face cut in certain situations. Such as pushing something over with a dozer or skidder blade. Cutting low when pushing on a tree prevents the tree from being pushed butt first off the stump, to an extent. Its not fool proof and requires discretion and experience.

 

[forestryworks]

I cut a few jobs where the timber was unmarked. Not my thing if I can help it; prefer a marked to cut or marked to leave or clearcut any day!

Plus a marked stand means an extra body got put to work; not a bad thing in this wet paper sack of an economy.

 

[woodworkingboy]

I believe that there are environmentally friendly and safe to spray paints out there. People in the town environment, sometimes the woods too, often use a plastic type brightly colored type of packaging tie material here. Not so nice when it wraps around your sprocket. Ask me how I know.

 

[gf beranek]

I cut a few jobs where the timber was unmarked. Not my thing if I can help it; prefer a marked to cut or marked to leave or clearcut any day!

Plus a marked stand means an extra body got put to work; not a bad thing in this wet paper sack of an economy.

Well stated, Jameson. And while your words ring true there is room for clear cut management in diseased and burned stands., and in the same breath I know select cut management has a very valid place in healthy stands of timber. Surely a balance for each situation.

I believe you have a good grasp on both the issues. Thank you.

 

[Al Smith]

I suppose everybody does it differently .Tom does exactly like Butch .Relatively small wedge and dead even with the bottom .

I use a more open wedge and about two inchs higher on the back cut .They're both treemen and I'm basically a woods faller but both ways the tree always goes over .Now in my youth I did like Stig until one rolled around on the stump and nearly scared me to death .That was over 30 years ago and never again did I use that method .

 

[MasterBlaster]

No wedge in that pic, Al. I rarely use them.

 

[forestryworks]

No wedge in that pic, Al. I rarely use them.

I believe he's calling a "wedge" a face cut. Or as you say, underbelly, or underbed. Or whatever the hell it is you call them

 

[forestryworks]

Well stated, Jameson. And while your words ring true there is room for clear cut management in diseased and burned stands., and in the same breath I know select cut management has a very valid place in healthy stands of timber. Surely a balance for each situation.

I believe you have a good grasp on both the issues. Thank you.

Thank you for the good word, Jerry.

Great points as well.

 

[MasterBlaster]

Ahhh, Al was referring to the narrow face. It was a short, 10' spar.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Did the crane pick it or did you just drop it?