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do you prefer to look up or turn and run

murphy4trees

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Here's a comment I left for this video from Buckin Billy. I think this one is worth discussing again. See the action at 16:15

This video also gets me thinking about whether you should just turn and run, (and perhaps drop the saw first), as you did on an earlier release, or if you should look up and try to dodge the hazards. My take is that you should run if the hazard is limbs falling out of the sky. However it's the whole tree that is going to topple after getting straight, you should look up. You will have more time to get out of its path than with a falling limb, and almost no chance of outrunning it. With falling limbs, you can get far enough out of the way in the few seconds it will take any limb to fall, that it would take a freaky throwback to get you. Working in backyards doesn't offer the same opportunities to have a depth of relevant experience, so it would be nice to hear from the loggers on this one. What do you think Billy? Thes are the things I like to think about

 

lxskllr

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Both? I don't really do much big sketchy stuff, but I'd aim for a clean working area, keep my eyes up, and back away with some speed as needed. In a dense(ish) forest, I might pre select "cover trees", and make sure there's a clear path to them. In that case, perhaps a bit less looking up :shrugs:
 

treebilly

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I guess it kind of depends on what the situation calls for. I’m typically getting away for falling limbs but once in a while it’s because of a tree misbehaving during its demise.
 

Jonny

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If dealing with something hung up like that at 16:15 and obvious dead and loose stuff that’s gonna shower down, I’d at least consider sticking a tag line on that butt and give myself some distance.
I can’t see the big picture from my chair here, so I’ll refrain from saying I’d definitely do this or that... but I’d probably consider using a tag line.

I like his videos, seems like a really nice guy.
 

Marc-Antoine

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I agree for the Maasdam. Be nowhere close when that thing starts moving.
Billy made me jump on my chair on the last cut. A very hight cut, slanted toward him ? At what he thought this time. That's far from his usual skill level.
I saw clearly the outcome and still jumped !
 

murphy4trees

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That's far from his usual skill level.
I saw clearly the outcome and still jumped !
I jumped too and yelled, "c'mmon Billy" at the computer, when that limb landed right next to him. I was scared for him. I think the point he was trying to make is that he has the skill to make it work in such a dangerous situation. SO to me, that's not a lack of skill as much as it is questionable judgment.

Like Billy, I prefer to put a leaner on the ground with just a saw whenever possible. Sometimes you need wedges or a rope, puller, chain, truck, loader, etc. But most of mine can be dropped with just the cuts. It's faster and generally a lot easier, as long as it works. His was risky, and he made it work. He's got good instincts to go with his skills, that served him well in that dangerous scenario. He lost his balance for a second, just as the piece went, though he managed to recover. He easily could have fallen or tripped in that scenario.

I have concerns that when you take chances like that on a regular basis, even if they are very small, over time the odds start stacking up against you.

I think his skills are top-notch, so I say this with all due respect.

He has published video of some real sketchy work. He one hands a groundsaw with 24" bar, cutting above his head, from a ladder, working without any saddle or form of tie-in. He handled the situation with good control, so maybe he was trying to show what can be done. That is Billy's most objectionable video IMO. It's a bad message to send out. I don't know any production climber that conforms to ANSI guidelines, and I usually find myself on opposite ends of the spectrum from the safety police, but that is one is cringeworthy. I didn't comment because I didn't want to come off as critical.

I think he'll be OK. It seems like he has good karma.

.
 

cory

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My understanding of karma is that it is not some magic-type BS, it is more like that the vibe you put out is the vibe that generally comes back at you, both in little moment to moment stuff and on up to a grand scale.

Btw, re the OP, I do both but most often I run. It reminds me of a story back in the day, I was logging alone with a skidder in CT, was cutting up to 5k bf/day but the boss wanted to put someone with me to make the machine more productive. He sends a kid out into woods with me, I'm cutting trees and jogging/walking quickly away from every fell, I notice the kid is staying close to the stump, I got the impression he felt it was more manly to hang by the stump rather than escaping. Whatev. I cut a huge tulip which bent over a coupla smaller trees on its way which caused a catapult action once they released off the tulip and they hurled a big tulip limb back at the stump. The kid didn't see the limb coming cuz he was watching the falling tulip. I couldn't warn him, it all happened too quick. Limb smashed him square across shoulders and schmooshed him into the dirt. Thankfully he wasn't badly hurt but that was the last I saw of him after and hour or two in the woods.
 

ruel

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Oof that sounds nasty.

Like most, I'm split on hanging vs running, sometimes turning your back us sketchier than hanging tight.

I slash cut pretty regularly, only way to do that is hang and react
 

BeerGeek

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Dan, from arboristsite.com thread:

You should use slash cut approach to limbing back trees.make a small face cut on the underside of the limb,and then make your falling cut at an angle towards your face cut.This should let limb fall without tearing or breaking.

It appears what BBR was doing was a version of this to bring that tree down. Others, if I'm mistaken, please feel free to correct me.
 

Marc-Antoine

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Looks like a bucking cut at an angle. Just a kerf underside, a kerf on the upper side, living an untouched spot in the middle, then cut the spot. It's tricky because it isn't easy to tell where the real compression side is, depending of the lean and the holding points on the other tree(s). More, that can change from one cut to the next, as the tree modifies its position and its fulcrums at each cut. From the first cut (after the felling cut) we can see that the tree want to kick its butt to the left. That's what scared me for the last cut, because Billy places itself just there, where the tree's butt will slide toward the side instead of straight down.
 

Tree09

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I thought on hung up trees, sop was to make a notch on top, and then buck up/ bore to do it going down for a big saw, so the tree can simply sit and you can see it happening and move, and the hinge controls it a bit more? Repeating will allow it to stand more upright, and possibly roll off to fall? Angling the notch to move the butt to the side if needed? Adding a pull/ tag line up top for helping it move if needed? I'm fixing to learn something here :)
 

Marc-Antoine

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I thought on hung up trees, sop was to make a notch on top, and then buck up/ bore to do it going down for a big saw, so the tree can simply sit and you can see it happening and move, and the hinge controls it a bit more? Repeating will allow it to stand more upright, and possibly roll off to fall? Angling the notch to move the butt to the side if needed? Adding a pull/ tag line up top for helping it move if needed? I'm fixing to learn something here :)
That's what I do. Bucking the hung up tree, with many felling cuts. I add a wedge or the rope puller (at the butt) if needed. A straight cut is faster but you have to follow closely what's going on, because it's easy to get the saw stuck when the butt pushes down hard. A felling cut is more workable and you can easily adjust the path of the tree by cutting the notch at an angle, side way, or even backward (with a pull). Last week, I had a decayed wild cherry to fell (about 60' left). A small blacktop road under the lean, other tall trees close to the sides, only a 60° area possible on the back, but with some baby trees left and right, and an big oak just in the middle a little far away. To avoid crushing the babies, I aimed the cherry toward the oak, pulled and hung it in it. I cut some logs from the butt toward the oak to get the cherry more upright, then "turned" to the left (notches on the right) and made the cherry slided out off the oak toward the right, clearing the baby trees.8)
An other time, it was a dead skinny oak at the edge of a wood lot. Climbing it would have taken too much time for the schedule and felling it in the landscaped area obviously wasn't allowed. Same technique, I hung it in an oak behind it, walking it close to the vertical. The intended lay was then on the side, but with a fence too close. To shorten the trunk, but not risking to loose it backward in the flowers, I cut some short logs with the notches alternatively to the right and to the left, keeping the average position close to the vertical, leaning slightly in the big oak. A last notch hight at the right sent the butt to the left and the remaining tree to the right toward the fence. Yes !

That works too to try to disengage a limb lock in the crowns. The side move of the butt modifies the fulcrum points and can free the stupid limb (or not).
 
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