Derrick rigging and redneck cranes

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  • #126
guyline-1.jpg

There are 3 lines that are being used, the skyline (speedline), the mainline, and a haulback line. The skyline doesn't have to move. The mainline controls both hosting and upward travel, the haulback pulls it closer to the anchor. You can operate this with only one winched line, as the mainline and haulback line could be tensioned and belayed, and all drifting would be up the line. Two pulleys can be used for the whole thing, one on the skyline and one tied to it and the haulback line. The mainline goes through the lower pulley.

Basically the loading operation is this: the skyline is tightened and tied off. Then the haulback and mainline are tightened to lift the rope off the ground, and are adjusted by pulling the haulback line down over the log while the mainline is eased out. A knot or something needs to be tied to the end of the mainline, because you are jamming the knot in the pulley to be able to haul it back down the rope. At that point you can add wraps to the haulback line (like on a portawrap). The log is attached to the mainline, and then the mainline is winched in. The haulback line is gently eased off, and the log drifts towards the gin pole. On an actual cable yarder the drums are able to be synchronized to pull in the same as the other drum lets out, so the operator lifts the log, then hauls it back at high speed. You can achieve the same thing as someone easing out the haulback line as the mainline is brought in.

There's an actual name for this style of cable logging, but I'm not going to make myself look like an idiot and claim I know logging that well, as there are tons of different ways to rig cableways. Here's a few different examples on this osha page.

https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/yarding/example_systems.html
 
Yarding. Cable logging was what I mainly did in the woods. The haulback is only needed when downhill yarding or flat i suppose but I've never yarded a flat block, not ever. Conventional scoops up all the easy ground. When uphill yarding no haulback is needed, way easier to rig and run. I've run yarder many times, although it wasn't my usual job because it was physically easy lmao. Even though I could run yarder I was kept more busy rigging trees, hooking beads, and pulling cable. It's a lot of fun running those big winches and keeping all the spools tight. Even raising the sky and locking it into place is cool. We used slack pulling carriages for the most part but I also used some straight gravity/mechanical ones. We called the heavy bit on the end that gravitied the chokers down and actuated the carriage on the way up the 'donkey dink'. Lol.
 
Usually the haulback line has an accumulator brake that you just set some drag on to keep the spool tight while,pulling in on the mainline. F-ck me I've seen and pulled, beat, and repaired every make and manner of rats nest that you can imagine from people not setting accumulators and brakes properly. It takes a real operator to run a yarder well. Easy to frig stuff up in an instant.
 
Actually as I recall the yarder I ran the most you didn't set the brake on the haulback while pulling in on the main you just feathered it, there was no setting it otherwise you'd burn sh-t up. i can't recall the exact number of gears and the actual speeds but it was awesome to suck the load up to the carriage, everything clear and carriage freed up and just lay your foot into it and fly the load up the hill. Those winches and spools spin up fast. The speed and amount of force was amazing.

I shouldn't mention it but I have before......I rode the rigging many times. Lol. Now that was a rush. Totally illegal for compo and common sense.
 
Yup. End of the day, find a strong limb and hook a couple chokers to it and make a swing. Send yourself upmthe hill same as a turn of logs. Beat the hell out of walking. You know I'd always hold onto the choker too, just in case the limb broke, to be safe. Lol.

Many times if I was in view of the operator I supermanned it. Just hook the ends of the chokers into loops and hold on. Takes some confidence in the operator. Just a little.
 
O.k. The last time i used a rigging situation like this is needing to lift brush and wood up up 30'+, then walk it over 70'+\- to the chipper and then lower it.
So, flat line all the way.
I set a tight high line between two trees that were situated perfectly.
I ran a trolly (thanks charly potoroff) on the high lead.
Then i set a CMI double pulley. The cmi has a cam on the lower pulley.
And then pull back lines for each direction.
Put a load line through the lower pulley, pulled the load tight, and the cam grabbed the load line. Then using one of the pull back lines, pulled the load to the chipper.
The release line for the cam on the cmi was a throw line.

Problems:
The load would spin and the throw line would get tangled. Tough to straighten it all out.
Each pull back line wanted to tangle as slack was made in the opposite line.

Conclusion: yes it worked, but sucky system.
Need a block that can lift and lower and lock off.

I even looked into loggers trolley blocks, but they are all rated for a zillon lbs. and weigh 100s of lbs. because they have their own engine.


Hope all this makes sense. I think a solution to this would really help our industry.

Tree guys who love to rig usually over rig with what is available, ie: alum blocks and excessive ropes everywhere. But seeing as how i run a small tree service that kind of rigging does not pencil out in terms of set up time vrs. Net revenue from the job.
 
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  • #134
I'm not sure where the cam helped, does it hold the load when you get it up to height? You can technically rig that loading scheme without a skyline at all, just a high rigging point by the trailer you are loading and a portawrap at the other end. As the load is lifted, you just ease out line on the portawrap to drift the limb to the high rigging point, and then lower onto the trailer. It's basically the same as hooking a chipper winch on a piece after it's been lowered, and drifting it across a yard. With a skyline, which helps add lift and keep the loads down or gain higher lift height, you need a trolley and another pulley on the bottom. You still belay the load with the low side, and that's what keeps the load in the air. The original question and point of this thread was how to load logs without machinery or dicing them into small enough pieces to load manually, which is forever slow. That particular rigging setup requires two people, but you can use a truck, rope, and a handful of pulleys to do the back breaking part of this job quicker and safer. That's the original point of this thread
 
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  • #135
This is what started it, and probably should be here for easier finding.

This book was mentioned in another thread, and if you have large wood like that to move, it really can turn a terrible job into something that's not too bad. Before there were cranes, which use a counter weight to resist overturning, there were derricks, which use guylines and beams in compression to resist overturning. By using concepts in this book, and maybe even building something to fit on the trailer itself, you can load wood weighing hundreds to thousands of pounds in one motion by hand, same as equipment but slower. Using powered winches you can do it as fast as a crane could.

Here's a job I did not too long ago, simple drop and clean up. I did it alone, and used a tree by the road to build a simple column derrick, which I then loaded entire arbor trolley brush loads and the trunk in 6-8 foot sections. The spar is just a straight limb from a Bradford pear that was part of the job, hacked off at about 15' long. I ran an extension cord to run my right angle drill on my homemade grcs, then released a swing guyline to allow it to swing over the truck, then simply lowered it down. Whole thing took maybe 20 min to rig up, over half of that was me trying to hook up the grcs to the trunk by myself. The spar was held up by a rope in a higher crotch, simply pulled up by hand and then tied off. When I was done, I lowered the boom, cut it up, tossed it in, and down the road I go.
View attachment 83630
While not as fast or cool as a loader, it worked on this job, and the equipment was what I had with me, and transported in the passenger seat. I've done similar setups in the construction world too, usually with a couple of chain falls. While they seem ridiculously outdated, and they are, they still work way better than grunting it up there by hand, and are used when other methods just don't work. Bridge construction and tearing down tower cranes are still done with stiffleg derricks, guy derricks are used for super heavy lifts, and Chicago derricks are still handy in a pinch. You can use wood to make the spars, and even add a small one on the trailer so it's ready to go when you need it.
 
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  • #136
And the other half. I'm not quoting it so the pictures show up.

Sure. You can do it with many different kinds of knots, or even just a sling. Here's a picture for reference.
View attachment 83658
They have rope tied to the upright post (the mast), and it's just tied on the end of of the other spar (the boom). A pile hitch, several wraps and a shackle, round turn and two half hitches, running bowline, just about any hitch can be used. In the picture they took the time to add planks on either side of the mast, which keeps everything in line and keeps it from rotating by gravity. I usually don't do that, instead I let it just hang there and swing on its own. Where the knot is located and everything makes the boom swing to a spot where everything is in equilibrium. That's where I park what I'm loading into. Then I use a guyline to swing the boom where I'm gonna pick it up from, and belay the line. Then when the load is hoisted, you ease off the swing guy, and it just swings right over the trailer or whatever. Then you ease off the load line to lower. I used a grcs in this case, but you can literally use anything; a truck pulling, a chain fall, an electric hoist, a winch, pulley blocks, etc.

If you don't have a tree where you need it, you can rig up a mast, use guylines to hold out more or less level, and then use a slightly shorter boom so you can swing under the guys. With two forms of pulling you can set it up where you can luff the boom as well (raise boom up and down under load), and pretty soon you are reaching the capabilities of a small crane. As long as you anticipate the forces, understand the line angles and resultant forces, you can rig safely under the load limits of your gear. These principles and techniques can be applied in almost infinite different ways, allowing you to adapt to just about any rigging situation. Here's a common setup used on ships during ww2. They since have switched to crane type setups, but this is still a viable form of rigging. The larger the loads, the more common derricks become. This particular rigging uses two booms, which then have the load lines tied together. That way the can position one boom over the side for unloading, and one directly over the hatch. Then the only lines they need to move are the load lines, and they can drift the load between them with ease by just winching in or out. Since derricks are anchored rather than ballasted (using weight to resist overturning load), they can be used for side pulls as well, which opens up even more rigging possibilities (such as a swing yarder).
View attachment 83659
 
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  • #138
Well here you go Gary, here's the linked books and downloads on the subject that I was going to post, then forgot about. The first one is fm5-125, the army field manual on rigging. Tons of info there, and they go into derricks, jinniwinks, gin poles, etc.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIEhAB&usg=AOvVaw2EXCacRdpjVMUt8XdPfpXu

This next one is the U.S. army cableway rigging manual, on Google books so you can read it on a e reader.

https://books.google.com/books/about/Cableways_Tramways_and_Suspension_Bridge.html?id=KC1FAQAAMAAJ
 
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  • #140
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  • #141
I have a few others as well, but the last one I feel I should definitely add is cranes and derricks by Shapiro. The Shapiro family are engineers from nyc, and they are the go to guys on serious rigging. The book isn't free, and it's not cheap, but if you want to learn the true ins and outs of the engineering behind rigging, this is the book. It is an engineering text, but is well written and not impossible to read as some engineering texts are.

https://www.amazon.com/Cranes-Derricks-Fourth-Lawrence-Shapiro/dp/0071625577
 
Kyle, a video of that set-up would be killer. There are so many placed where rigging fits where machines don't.

Looked at a big tree removal in a raised yard, with a structurally-soft retaining wall, and a fence. Being able to boom over obstacles, to get material up or down to a machine would be great, in certain situations.


For hanging your 'GRCS', did you put a strap/ sling up on the tree to hang the mount, to free up both hands for strapping? I think Reg put that in a video with the Stein double bollard LD.
 
Tree09, sorry for the derail. I really thought we were talking about tricky rigging in general.

Yes the cam is to release the load. Had to suck the load up high, then move it.
 
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  • #144
I should try to do a video sometime, I've never tried that before. I'm warning you now, it will be shot with my phone lol. The wife is getting better after the baby, so here pretty soon mr mom can go back outside and get something done :/:

Yeah I always forget about doing that when I'm trying to put it up lol. I don't always work alone, but when I do, I forget all of the tricks to make life easy :lol:

latest.jpg
 
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  • #145
frans said:
Tree09, sorry for the derail. I really thought we were talking about tricky rigging in general.

Yes the cam is to release the load. Had to suck the load up high, then move it.
Click to expand...

There was no derail, it was a valid point. Tricky rigging is pretty much everything here lol. I've never seen a block like that, but that would be pretty handy on some stuff. The haulback line needs tension on it to keep everything in order. This allows you to use a regular block for the bottom block, and the line tension from the haulback line is what keeps the piece airborne. Am I explaining this right? I'll see if I can find a picture, if not, this would be a good video as well, and I think I got a spot where this could be handy.

I completely understand and agree that hydraulics are awesome and make some of this stuff less important. But let's say you only have an arbor trolley, or is a front yard tree that has opportunities to load rather than taking an extra trip to grab the machine, this stuff can be handy. These techniques are also used in timber framing, which many on here do too. Super complicated rigging situations sometimes do take more time than it's worth, but what makes them complicated is our unfamiliarity with them too. That's why the more variations and stuff you know, the easier it is. I'm not saying I know anything btw, I just study this stuff and use it whenever I can. I'm not really familiar with redneck yarders, but I need to learn more about them, because having that trick in the bag would really make life easier sometimes!
 
Anyone enjoying this thread would like 2 great TV docs I watched on Science channel, the series is called Building Giants. One show was about constructing a 1000' high skyscraper recently built in NYC on a very small footprint- no room for cranes in the street, so after using a tower crane anchored up thru the center of the building for the first 500', they built an "outrigger" to hold a crane/derrick onto the side of the building to build the upper half. Insane weights and loads involved.

Other show was on construction of the huge new Atlanta Falcons stadium. One crane used is the biggest crawler crane in N America and believe me, that sucker is ridiculously large. Each show has lots of crane work and welding.

One interesting thing was when they went to lower down the huge, high center span over the stadium, which was supported in the middle during construction and then the center support was to be slowly jacked lower so that both span-ends on massive bulkheads would then be supporting all the span weight...well the supporting struts in the middle started to deform during the jack down so they had to stop and weld plates onto the struts for added strength before they could finish the jack down. I know nothing about welding but would think that adding a lot of welding heat to steel already deforming under extreme load could be dangerous.
 
Lol I've heard this new Falcons stadium was 1/2 empty for much of this season due to fan anger over NFL players kneeling for anthem.:O
 
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  • #148
Cool Cory, I hadn't seen those, and I'll see if I can watch them! As far as welding on stuff with lots of pressure, it depends on how much and how everything is loaded. Pipelines operate at sometimes very high percentages of the steels yield point, and they weld on them in service all the time, under full pressure. It's funny when you get someone new to it, and they start to get reallllllllllyyyyyyyy nervous. If you do blow thru it tho, they won't even have a body to recover lol. They also do what's known as a hot tie in sometimes (on natural gas), and that's where the stopper fitting isn't holding for some reason, and has leak by. So they fill the pipe completely with natural gas so the pipe can't explode (no oxygen) and sometimes even weld on a flare pipe if the leak by is too much, then they weld it up as flames shoot out. :rockon:

https://youtu.be/cxlftZvKW9U
 
That is f'g nuts.

Somewhere back a few hundred posts, I think you likened tree work to welding at least in terms of learning it and maybe that each has it's ins and outs, iirc. Welding seems super technical compared to tree work, imho.
 
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