Chinese 365 Copy...

[MasterBlaster]

It's all good, Matt. I'm glad you started this thread; I understand where you're coming from! Carry on!

 

[MCW]

It's all good, Matt. I'm glad you started this thread; I understand where you're coming from! Carry on!

Thanks mate. I'm not after any violin playing but am seeing a similar pattern emerging as it did on AS. I was hoping that wouldn't happen here.
I'm certainly not a bad guy, a stupid guy, or trying to invoke Chinese World Domination

I suppose when you join a new forum, regardless of previous experience or knowledge, you're bound to get treated as a "newbie" by many and at one stage I was surely one of those, just as we all are/were

 

[Magnus]

I won't quote everything you've said here Magnus as it would fill up space uneccessarily.
I think you are underestimating my saw experience, intelligence, and knowledge of the bigger picture (I have a chainsaw and tree felling business if you didn't know). I have spent hundreds of hours on chainsaws, I have forestry qualifications, and have logged in excess of 10,000 trees. I am not some backyard moron who doesn't know how to run, start, or service saws. Your service/warranty comments are null and void in this case as I am the owner, operator, and service agent for this saw! Instead of trying to make me out to be the bad guy, venture a bit deeper.

No, I doubt I underestimate you. I believe you have above average knowledge and interest in saws and are fully capable to do most work on them. But forestry qualifications is not what is needed on chain saw work bench any more than those skills are needed when doing forestry work.
Two different job's.
As you are service agent for this perhaps you could tell me were you order parts for it?
What size and quality are crank bearings? Were do you get the correct carb kit for this Anaba carb?
Ignition? Work rpm? Top rpm? Heat developments?
As the saw isn't tested by any of the organs used in industry to test saws you can't be sure the materials used are correct or good enough. The fact that weight is different usually mean materials are two. I doubt this saw had as many test hrs on its materials as the 371/372/365 saws.

You are using me as a scapegoat because you can't find where the other 10,000 copies of this saw have been sold. I don't even know who makes these saws (my Chinese supplier sourced them for me) but rest assured, I'm not the reason they started copying and selling this particular 365, a large market existed prior to my measly purchase.
I'm not here to tread on any toes but I'm also not here to be treated like a stupid little child.
All I did was purchase 2 chainsaws, sell one to a mate, and keep one for myself. I started a thread here for the benefit of members, not myself, who can see for themselves that here is one Chinese saw that actually isn't crap.

I try to explain after best ability that this is a problem to a hole industry, rather than you personally.
There is much more to this than just one or two purchases. You are the one of the many reasons they started copying and selling these... You bought it didn't you? They didn't make them to be shelf warmers!
Only reason I reply at all is that I DON'T consider you a stupid child. I am hoping I can discuss this in a somewhat decent manor so you understand me and I understand you.

For your interest I sponsor AS as I like that site and it also has a number of Australian member who are customers of mine. When these saws actually arrived I was highly doubtful of their quality but was quite surprised.
I mentioned this to a few Australian AS members not for sales' opportunites, but as a interested chainsaw enthusiast. They were very interested (not in purchasing any but in the actual technical aspects of this saw) just like most genuine saw enthusiasts should be. I started this thread so you guys could have a look and comment, not actually single me out as the whole reason China is taking over the world. The same thing played ut on AS. The thread started off nicely, got nasty, and I ended up basically unsubscribing from my own thread. I made it clear in my earlier posts that I didn't want this thread to spiral into a "MCW is a saw traitor" type mentality as I am most certainly not one. I have about $20,000 worth of pro model non Chinese saws here to back that up.

I really don't care what is done and said on other forums, especially AS!

You swallowed the bait and bought it. After you have no regrets and are happy. That is no problem, great that you are, but there are many that will be and are less fortunate.

You are correct with the temperature here being more than 10°c. When you mentioned cold I generally perceive that to mean a saw that has not been run and "warmed up". I would like you to ellaborate on your "first 3 pulls could have been avoided" comment. I don't know everything but haven't heard that one before. If you could have started that saw with less pulls (or all my pro saws for that matter) then I'm all ears I could actually learn something here!

I will be happy to share what little I know about saws. The thing I refer to there is tank pressure and how to build it. Also better addressed in another thread of discussion.
I learned a lot about saws and work on saws on daily basis. No matter how much I learn I will never be close to the collective knowledge there is in a hole service net from a brand like Husqvarna and Stihl. That is the main strength and recurse to the bigger brands! Almost unlimited amounts of feedback if they so desire. You won't get close to that with a saw bought by a sub supplier in the shade of a big online market.

This thread is about copy saws and your 365 is that.

It is important to know that when buying a product like this you get just what you pay for. Nothing more! In some cases that is enough.
No support, no guarantees, parts supplier etc.

There are other issues to address to involving this.

Insurance, buyers rights and safety for example. All saws sold here is to be tested before sold on open market for this to apply. I am sure the standards in most world is the same as HVA has their saws tested in a bunch of places in order to sell them.

 

[Cut4fun]

Thanks mate. I'm not after any violin playing

How about a little fiddle playing then. Enjoy.

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[dastevoe]

I for one would be interested in trying one,and I won't lose a whole lot of sleep over where it is made !!!!! If it's good,it's good !!! and if there are copy right infringements,let the Lawyers sort it out !
MCW do you have any link or info on the saw that might help me track one down here ????

Steve

 

[Magnus]

Chainsaws are not the most complicated thing there is to work on, but the demands on the stuff is high and the environments they are used in is often pretty bad for a engine.
The trees property's, the operators skill, fuels, attachments, locations...
All this is is just some of the things that together add up and give a result.

I can take a consumer grade saw like McCulloch 5 Evolution and cut 400 cubic meter (fub. no air,bark etc) Elm pulp wood without any trouble. I maintain saw and pay attention to what I do, use good fuel, sharp chains, don't over rev or over load. It takes longer time, but I have time...
The Pro logger next door would kill it in a day with less than 30 cut!
All this mean very little as it is me personaly. It does not mean it is a good saw or that I can do it again with the next consumer grade saw I get.

 

[Magnus]

I for one would be interested in trying one,and I won't lose a whole lot of sleep over where it is made !!!!! If it's good,it's good !!! and if there are copy right infringements,let the Lawyers sort it out !
MCW do you have any link or info on the saw that might help me track one down here ????

Steve

This is interesting.
What exactly do you mean with "good saw".

One that start and run when you get it? Powerful? Long lasting? Money making machine or just for fun?

 

[Magnus]

I for one would be interested in trying one,and I won't lose a whole lot of sleep over where it is made !!!!! If it's good,it's good !!!

Steve

Say you bought it and it has no spark when you try to start it (nothing unusual, happens with all brands occasionally when sale service is done) What then?
Send it back?
Say it does run, but not right or as you expected after seeing a saw cutting on a internet video, what then?

If you buy a saw here at my place you can test, try, feel and smell. Get advice etc...
IF it doesn't live up to your expectations you can return it within two weeks.

 

[MCW]

No, I doubt I underestimate you. I believe you have above average knowledge and interest in saws and are fully capable to do most work on them. But forestry qualifications is not what is needed on chain saw work bench any more than those skills are needed when doing forestry work.
Two different job's..

Isn't it possible to do two jobs Magnus? I am by no means a saw mechanical guru but let's be honest, apart from the odd saw carby problems (if all else fails replace it!) you don't have to be a rocket scientist to work on saws. They are a very simple design as far as internal combustion engines go.

As you are service agent for this perhaps you could tell me were you order parts for it?
What size and quality are crank bearings? Were do you get the correct carb kit for this Anaba carb?
Ignition? Work rpm? Top rpm? Heat developments?
As the saw isn't tested by any of the organs used in industry to test saws you can't be sure the materials used are correct or good enough. The fact that weight is different usually mean materials are two. I doubt this saw had as many test hrs on its materials as the 371/372/365 saws..

For crying out loud I am a service agent for this ONE SAW!!! I am not selling any more of them, I am not marketing them, I am not ordering any more of them. I have made that very clear. All parts are available for this saw from my supplier Magnus. In fact I can buy a whole saw for half the price of a new, genuine 365 Piston and Cylinder kit. Fix the carb? Why? A new one costs less than USD$10.
I don't know the size and quality of the crank bearings but I can tell you that this particular saw's crank is fully interchangable with a genuine 365, as are every other part on this saw by all accounts.
Top RPM is a typical response and the only option at a dealership with no wood to cut. I tune all saws while actually cutting. No load RPM on this saw is slightly rich at 11,800rpm. Heat developments? Well of course if you tune it correctly you won't have any. I've been tuning my own saws for quite a while now and err on the side of rich for safety. Certainly not over rich though.
If you'd like to get in an argument about who's the better saw technician well yeah, you win, but once again, I'm not as stupid as you think I am and trying to pigeon hole me with tricky questions won't win any brownie points with me.

Stop messing around Magnus - what point are you trying to make here that I haven't covered already? You keep replying to me with similar questions to what I've just answered.

I try to explain after best ability that this is a problem to a hole industry, rather than you personally.
There is much more to this than just one or two purchases. You are the one of the many reasons they started copying and selling these... You bought it didn't you? They didn't make them to be shelf warmers!
Only reason I reply at all is that I DON'T consider you a stupid child. I am hoping I can discuss this in a somewhat decent manor so you understand me and I understand you...

I agree this is a big problem. Now you know that it is a bigger problem than you first thought because the saw outlined in this thread is far better than you thought it would be. That alone is one good reason to have started this thread. You can now rest assured that the Chinese are actually producing a good copy. Once again don't assume it is garbage as you have alluded to many times. I can assure you that to my own surprise it isn't - maybe it will prove me wrong but it won't probably be used enough to even wear it out. This will not be replacing my other pro saws, or yours, or anybody elses on this forum unless they decide to source one themselves.

I will be happy to share what little I know about saws. The thing I refer to there is tank pressure and how to build it. Also better addressed in another thread of discussion..

I did start this thread Magnus and if you can give advice on tank pressure build up and faster starting please feel free to post it here. This thread has already been hijacked so by all means pass this info on or link to another thread where it's been posted before.

It is important to know that when buying a product like this you get just what you pay for. Nothing more! In some cases that is enough.
No support, no guarantees, parts supplier etc.

What? I bought a saw on the cheap from a Chinese business partner who I've never met, had it posted 8,000 odd kilometres, and can't get manufacturer back up or a warranty? Oh my god, I've been ripped off...
As mentioned a full range of parts are available.

Insurance, buyers rights and safety for example. All saws sold here is to be tested before sold on open market for this to apply. I am sure the standards in most world is the same as HVA has their saws tested in a bunch of places in order to sell them.

If you are posting this as a general comment then fine, but if you are posting this to educate me then I already understand that. We seem to be going around in circles Magnus. Basically every comment you have posted has seemed to indicate that you think I am selling these saws to customers. I am not. As mentioned the other 365 copy was sold to a mate with a similar business to mine. In fact it wasn't actually sold but part traded on a 40' Aluminium tree ladder worth about USD$1500.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I suppose when you join a new forum, regardless of previous experience or knowledge, you're bound to get treated as a "newbie" by many

In spite of how it might appear, that really doesn't happen here.

Imma poet!

 

[MCW]

You need to get that to a publisher ASAP Masterblaster

 

[NeTree]

Thanks mate. I'm not after any violin playing but am seeing a similar pattern emerging as it did on AS. I was hoping that wouldn't happen here.
I'm certainly not a bad guy, a stupid guy, or trying to invoke Chinese World Domination

I suppose when you join a new forum, regardless of previous experience or knowledge, you're bound to get treated as a "newbie" by many and at one stage I was surely one of those, just as we all are/were

This isn't AS by a long shot. We can disagree here without the hating, so don't feel awkward about bringing a thread up.

I for one would be interested in trying one,and I won't lose a whole lot of sleep over where it is made !!!!! If it's good,it's good !!! and if there are copy right infringements,let the Lawyers sort it out !

And that's why the genuine saws cost what they do. :roll:

 

[Cut4fun]

Dang MCW give a few of us the hook ups in PM's and you wont be the only one getting stones thrown at you.

I like stones, I eat stones for breakfast, just dont have any teeth left.

 

[MCW]

Dang MCW give a few of us the hook ups in PM's and you wont be the only one getting stones thrown at you.

I like stones, I eat stones for breakfast, just dont have any teeth left.

Nah no hook ups mate. As mentioned the main reason I imported these saws was to trial the BB kits I'm importing from the same guy. I have already had issues with brittle rings with these kits so am going to sell them with Caber rings imported from Greece. One of the guys trialling kits for me has them on work saws in Canada. Unfortunately the first kit got siezed from an inlet manifold leak and the other one smashed a ring (and piston) when it hooked on what looked to be a nicely bevelled exhaust port. It looks to be caused by a lack of radius on the exhaust port roof This has been an issue with some aftermarket P&C kits.

 

[dastevoe]

This is interesting.
What exactly do you mean with "good saw".

One that start and run when you get it? Powerful? Long lasting? Money making machine or just for fun?

Yes All of the above. If it turned out to be otherwise then it would be a lesson learned. I also am my own "service agent",difficulty in getting parts would be my problem,If oem happened to fit all the better. Don't think for a minute that these Chinese companies aren't using the latest manufacturing technology that can hold tolerances to the millionths,so if this one manufacturer is using this equipment and "copying" the 365 then parts shouldn't be a problem.
I'm not making my living with saws so I am looking at it from the "for fun" angle. I do think eventually they will get some market share and if there are successful lawsuits (which I doubt will happen any time soon),they will have there own development programmes by then.
It still comes down to "you pay your money,you take your chances".

Steve

 

[Magnus]

I learn as I go on just as most others.
Eng is a language I continually learn a lot from but the words used do mean something. It is pretty simple really no matter language used. You write what you wish to say and expect people to read and pay attention.
If you say you are a "agent for service of" something, you say are just that, even if it is for two saws....
http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/agent-for-service-of-process.html

OK. Back on topic.
I find this topic interesting as it is something I deal with often. Not as seller or buyer, but as a service guy.

You can have two trades at once, even find both interesting and progress at both but it is rare.
Usually you get really good at the things you enjoy most and try to do most. I am a half assed tree feller as I focus my attention on saws.
The chainsaw is not a complex machine, but if people with 40 years in buissness still learn a lot I don't expect to ever learn enough on saws.

As I said initially this is a big problem.
Chainsaws are not equal just because they are in same brand. Not in same model even. This is were the term "quality" is used. As few duds as possible. This is one of the highest costs in production. To maintain and assure the quality hold same standards.
Pro saws, farmer saws, consumer grade saws (in this order) all are checked and controlled more or less. Notice Copy saws are not included.

Lets say you got these two saws and they hold up to your expectation enough to post it here and advice others to buy.
What is to say the ones they get are good or even same as yours?

"Full range of parts available" is something I read very often. Very seldom there is a actual contact or parts supplier and if it is they carry HVA or Stihl parts.
The parts sold are often correct for the original, but not the copy. And I have yet to see someone that actually supply parts for the copy saws for all customers that need.
As the saws are 20% of the cost of a original, the copied parts is likely 20% of the cost then too, right? That is if they are needed, of curse. China saws is not better than others, they need parts to if they are used. Often more than the original...
Biggest seller of china saws I know of here made up his own stock of parts from saws he got. Simply stripped new and sold the parts.
He could not order parts from china to his china saws as it was simply not available though it was clearly stated and offered.

Your tone would be very different if the saws would not sing as you tried to get them going. I hear that song here often and yours is better!

If you rather discuss tank pressure, we can do that. I just thought as you posted it might be a good opportunity to discuss this.
To build saw pressure you put 4/5 of gas in the tank, tilt it from side to side 4-5 times on the bench. If all is correct in saw, and you pull the fuel hose out fast there should be a fuel squirt about min. 40cm out.
Taught out on the dealer meetings when Husqvarna in late 70's early 80's.
But you knew this right?

 

[MCW]

Yes All of the above. If it turned out to be otherwise then it would be a lesson learned. I also am my own "service agent",difficulty in getting parts would be my problem,If oem happened to fit all the better. Don't think for a minute that these Chinese companies aren't using the latest manufacturing technology that can hold tolerances to the millionths,so if this one manufacturer is using this equipment and "copying" the 365 then parts shouldn't be a problem.
I'm not making my living with saws so I am looking at it from the "for fun" angle. I do think eventually they will get some market share and if there are successful lawsuits (which I doubt will happen any time soon),they will have there own development programmes by then.
It still comes down to "you pay your money,you take your chances".

Steve

I do earn money with my saws but my business is after hours. It also takes up many many of those hours. I would never ever contemplate running this 365 for anything other than fun and for the interest factor. For paid jobs I have far more powerful or suitable saws for that, regardless of this saws build quality or reliability. To be honest it does not fill any gaps for me in my saw lineup.

If I posted a thread on this 365 and said it was junk, most people here wouldn't have commented like they have.

 

[Magnus]

Nah no hook ups mate. As mentioned the main reason I imported these saws was to trial the BB kits I'm importing from the same guy. .

Not too familiar with the BB-kit discussions on AS, Don't read there...

I assume you mean 372 kits or perhaps "375".

 

[Magnus]

I don't like the 365, but the topic here was copy saws or am I mistaken?

 

[woodworkingboy]

Erik mentioned that the quality saw manufacturers are utilizing a lot of resources to protect their interests, but at the same time it seems that the way the company turns a blind eye to the pricing in some other countries, that is what is helping to get the copies made for the markets. A MS200 is about $1200 here, and any larger displacement professional grade Husky or Stihl is generally at least twice to three times the cost of the selling price in the states. I've ordered at least a dozen Huskies from Baileys for folks when they allowed web sales, since the ban, not one guy I work with has purchased a new saw here of those makes, they are just too friggen expensive. They say that they want to protect their dealers here, which is all fine and dandy, but how about offering up a little compassion for the worker who may want a saw and has to budget for it out of a hard earned living.

If I went to my buds, who rely a lot on my advice when looking for saws, and told them that here was this Chinese copy that was every bit as good at a fraction of the cost of what inspired it, they would likely buy the copy with little hesitation. The reputation for poor quality is what holds them back now. At the same time, both Husky and Stihl sell their junk at the hardware stores, particularly Husky, for pocket money. It's all basically the same distribution network up to the retailer to my knowledge, but the huge disparity in pricing is very confusing. It's just no wonder that in this type of situation, wanting quality at substantially cheaper costs will become a factor in what will eventually gets offered.

 

[MCW]

The chainsaw is not a complex machine, but if people with 40 years in buissness still learn a lot I don't expect to ever learn enough on saws?

Of course people with 40 years as chainsaw mechanics are learning new stuff. There are new models with new design features coming out every week. If these guys were working on the same saws as they were 40 years ago they would be learning nothing. Only so many things can go wrong.

Lets say you got these two saws and they hold up to your expectation enough to post it here and advice others to buy.
What is to say the ones they get are good or even same as yours?

I do agree with you on this point which is exactly why I am not selling them. The Chinese can produce excellent products, but not with any real degree of consistency.

"Full range of parts available" is something I read very often. Very seldom there is a actual contact or parts supplier and if it is they carry HVA or Stihl parts.
The parts sold are often correct for the original, but not the copy. And I have yet to see someone that actually supply parts for the copy saws for all customers that need.
As the saws are 20% of the cost of a original, the copied parts is likely 20% of the cost then too, right? That is if they are needed, of curse. China saws is not better than others, they need parts to if they are used. Often more than the original...
Biggest seller of china saws I know of here made up his own stock of parts from saws he got. Simply stripped new and sold the parts.
He could not order parts from china to his china saws as it was simply not available though it was clearly stated and offered.

Let me put it this way Magnus. If I was to import these saws I would sell them for lets say USD$450. If they cost me USD$300 landed here and I keep two spare I will always have spares right?
This is all hypothetical though as I am not importing them to sell. As dastevoe mentioned above it is buyer beware. All I have to do is run some fuel through them and sell them as 2nd hand. Warranties are non existant then.

Your tone would be very different if the saws would not sing as you tried to get them going. I hear that song here often and yours is better!?

Yes my tone would be different but it's not, because they started

If you rather discuss tank pressure, we can do that. I just thought as you posted it might be a good opportunity to discuss this.
To build saw pressure you put 4/5 of gas in the tank, tilt it from side to side 4-5 times on the bench. If all is correct in saw, and you pull the fuel hose out fast there should be a fuel squirt about min. 40cm out.
Taught out on the dealer meetings when Husqvarna in late 70's early 80's.
But you knew this right?

Good tip but why would I spend time doing that when I can have the saw started with a few extra pulls in 5 seconds? I can understand what you've said, but I can't see how that indicates this saw has poor fuel pressure? If thats the case then every saw I own has poor fuel pressure. None will start under 4 pulls unless warmed up.

By the way, I know about fuel squirt. I copped a facefull of 98 octane (RON) unleaded when I was updating a fuel tank breather on an early series 7900 That stung... a lot...

 

[NeTree]

Can't say I have an explanation for the price disparity, Jay. But it isn't just saws that are subject to it, if it makes you feel any better.

 

[MCW]

Not too familiar with the BB-kit discussions on AS, Don't read there...

I assume you mean 372 kits or perhaps "375".

I assume you are the same Magnus from chainsawcollectors? I'm also a member there. The 372XP BB kit takes it out to 76cc. Not a big deal from stock but a noticable power increase.

I like AS but unfortunately a few too many parrots that like to just repeat stuff like they thought of the whole thing. In reality they read it somewhere else 5 seconds prior.
Also a lot of guys there who bignote themselves on their tree felling achievements but never back it up with photos or proof. Some of the information they give in regard to tree felling is quite dangerous.

 

[Magnus]

I found starters made in china for Husqvarna saws. I got these from a fellow chainsaw nut that imported them. I found this interesting as I have seen production of same starters here, not far from were I live. A naibur of mine is in charge of quality of these products for some of the new models out and coming.
He showed me a hole lot and explained how it works here.

The material used and parts, threads, springs, reinforcements, even shapes inside ets are all different on the china version.

 

[Cut4fun]

MCW, I just want to apologize for asking you to post pics and video's of this HH 365 copied saw. I figured people would look at it from curiosity point of view like myself and want to see what it is and not start the bashing game. I was wrong.

Thanks for posting thread for me to see.

My Mistake for asking,
Kevin