I take many of my cues from PNW fallers technique, and they normally make the undercut first and later may have to bang out the pie when the 2 well aligned cuts are very close to meeting, I agree with mistahbenn's technique. To each their own.
Butt tying clip
- Thread starter mistahbenn
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Murph, in your vid of the 3 leader removal, what is the purpose of the stump shot/elevated back cut, especially in the final leader. When pulling heavy back leaners directly against the lean, like that one, it can be a good idea to have the backcut below the hinge instead of even with it or above it, to give the hinge more strength to resist the heavy pull.
Tucker943
Bamboo Plantation Owner
The truth of the matter is that which ever way you start your notch, doesn't matter. The end result is the same. Its comparable to "do you put on deodorant or brush your teeth first?". Doesn't matter. Is the face open to the correct degree for the intended results? Is the notch faced dead on to the intended lay? Is the depth of the notch appropriate to the tree in question and the results desired? Those are all that count and I think the best fallers out there would agree to this. Starting one cut before the other has no bearing on the final result, in the hands of an experienced faller.
Tucker943
Bamboo Plantation Owner
One scenario that does come to mind that I feel does matter is when cutting a huge notch out of a huge tree. When making the bottom cut first, then the top angled cut second, the weight of a big notch droops away from the bar and chain. Done in reverse, the wedge can settle down onto the bar and chain before the bottom cut intersects the top cut and can gag the saw and make a little bit of a wrestling match. BUT, that's preventable by sticking a stick in the kerf of the second(bottom) cut to keep the kerf from closing.
Tucker943
Bamboo Plantation Owner
I don't intend to sound like a teacher or preacher, as I know you guys are well aware of this stuff. More so then me. Just sharing my perspectives to keep my brain from rusting and seizing up.
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
Wise words though... Seems to me a couple years back, a gob pinched someone's 066 and it came back on him cutting him pretty bad...
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
It's all good.
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
It's an old rusty nail.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
How much sense does that make???? better to have a hinge with less strength so the pull goes to fight the back lean, not the hinge... its often best to gut the hinge on back leaners, to weaken them..
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
Not everyone is an experienced faller. Most arbs including me are far from it.. and of course it matters... arbs don't carry hammers on our belts...
ClimbMIT
TreeHouser
Cory, Do you suggest leaving more strength on the hinge so the tree will be able to hold itself up against the lean before the pull? If so that makes sense to me. Murphy I also see your point as well by leaving more hinge it will require more pulling power? I consider myself almost Novice when it comes to felling so I am not trying disagree with anyone. I am just jumping here to learn.
Thanks!
Chris stated that if the face cut is DONE CORRECTLY there is no difference.
Please explain where the lack of a hammer figures in that?
Done correctly, means matching your cuts, I believe.
bonner1040
Nick from Ohio
I think fallers carry axes, not hammers. But I could be wrong.
No, more to allow inverted stump shot (backcut lower than the face) to keep the tree from being pulled off the stump by a huge pull. All of this stuff is laid out in black and white in Gerry's The Fundamentals of General Treework.
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
I would think that whether you want a stronger or weaker hinge with pull trees, depends a lot on what you are using to pull with, both the strength with the implement and the speed of pull available. The degree of back lean is also a factor. More often than not, I like to pull heavy leaning trees with a Tirfor endless line (cable) puller, where you have minimum stretch in the line and a slow steady constant pull in small increments per forward and backward stroke with the handle. A beefy hinge to start off with that you can tailor as you go along per how much resistance against the pull and how much the tree is coming up, seems to work real well. I don't see any need to gut the hinge. I don't have much experience pulling with something like a skidsteer, but I'm guessing that perhaps gutting the hinge can be an asset due to less sensitivity with the pulling device that you can monitor in slow stages, and wanting to get the tree over quickly. I love the Tirfor, a go to tool when failure isn't allowed.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
A perfect example of the difference between logging and arb work. That low back cut is used when the pull line is set below the tree's COG. and the problem with it is that it requires a lot more pull to move the tree, which isn't a problem if you're pulling with a 50,000 lb skidder cable... not something Mrs Smith wants in her garden though..
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
I already did... how about we discuss the real world stig? most arbs around here don't even know you're supposed to match your face cuts, much less how to do it in two cuts..
Marc-Antoine
TreeHouser
I love the Tirfor too, and even more the Maasdam rope puller for the lighter tasks. But there is a downside though. If you have to deal with some brittle wood, like maple or dead wood, the pull is way too slow to up right the tree and send it over straight in the lay. The hinge breaks when the tree is still back leaning, the gravity overcome your pull and the tree falls sideway (at best). You need a hard and fast pull to pass this critical point, or, if not available, a side guying to keep the tree in line.
Gutting the hinge is helpful with the wedges. That gives room for the wedge's tip to go throw the hinge (only the tip
) and lessen the wood to fold in the hinge. With a heavy tree or / and back leaner, it's a lot of work to drive the wedges just to lift the tree and you have to fold this thick hinge which is like a very wide fat board. Cutting throw it reduce this part of the global effort. 1/3 or 1/2 less, that's worth it.
Gutting the hinge is helpful with the wedges. That gives room for the wedge's tip to go throw the hinge (only the tip
) and lessen the wood to fold in the hinge. With a heavy tree or / and back leaner, it's a lot of work to drive the wedges just to lift the tree and you have to fold this thick hinge which is like a very wide fat board. Cutting throw it reduce this part of the global effort. 1/3 or 1/2 less, that's worth it.
Jack
Treehouser
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2010
- Messages
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mistahbenn
Treehouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #48
flushcut
TreeHouser
I carry an axe when tipping trees with wedges, even with a pull line set.
Tucker943
Bamboo Plantation Owner
Well then why don't you quit the wasted time on videos of complex and dangerous falling maneuvers and do a series on matched, true, appropriate to the situation, face cuts.
This crap about skilled falling and residential tree work being on opposite ends is retarded. A tree worker should be a skilled faller, with no exceptions. In the "real world", you are laying down trees and heavy logs beside and around peoples homes and businesses. Zero excuse for not being a skilled faller yet charging people money to entrust you with making a tree not hit their home.
You took a good thread started your combative bullshit. Like always.
