Bore - wedges - rotten tree

[woodworkingboy]

If you are tight lining like that often, or just in case of a situation where it becomes essential, you might want to invest in a mechanical puller. Good for yanking over hung up trees too. Mine is rated to 2 ton, but I dunno.... I put on a better grip since the pic.

 

[sawinredneck]

Ok, why such a small face? Looking at the pics it seems it was right on the verge of a barberchair? I would think a bigger face would have helped this?
Pulling against the lean, loaded with a pull rope, if it sets back, it's not loaded!

"I would think" a larger face, loaded with a pull rope, cut it as fast as you can from the back and chase it off the stump?
Not picking on you at all Gary, using this to learn myself.

 

[pantheraba]

It was not leaning back so I wasn't worried about it setting back. I was concerned about it trying to set towards the road where the wires were...thus, the wedges.

The small face was to maximize the wood available for a hinge...too deep and I thought I might compromise the holding wood. Since I was a one man show I was working to exert as much control on the commitment to the fall as I could...I didn't think I could afford the luxury of cutting fast and chasing it off the stump.

Don't worry about picking...I know that when anything is posted it is always subject to intense scrutiny and pickiness...but there is usually some learning that comes with it.

 

[sawinredneck]

It was not leaning back so I wasn't worried about it setting back. I was concerned about it trying to set towards the road where the wires were...thus, the wedges.

The small face was to maximize the wood available for a hinge...too deep and I thought I might compromise the holding wood. Since I was a one man show I was working to exert as much control on the commitment to the fall as I could...I didn't think I could afford the luxury of cutting fast and chasing it off the stump.

Don't worry about picking...I know that when anything is posted it is always subject to intense scrutiny and pickiness...but there is usually some learning that comes with it.

Ok, so a backup was a use for the wedges. And I understand the rot.
My questions stem from Burnhams lectures of too small a face cut. You have the mechanical advantage set up, the tree is commited, who cares how well the hinge holds?
The mechanical aspect is your control right? Loaded right you KNOW it's going that way. Even with little holding wood it will release and drop in the proper LZ?
I guess I have been around Cottonweeds all my life. You get a big one, you just count on it being hollow. NO hinge. It's either leaning or you use a mechanical advantage and chase it off the stump. Holding your breath the whole time hoping it doesn't twist on you!

 

[Blinky]

Andy, Even with a pull line you want the hinge to work as long as possible in case the tree contacts something and tries to roll. I've been surprised by how much influence brushing into a bunch of tips will have on the fall.
Granted that tree didn't have much for hinge wood though.

I guess if was me, I would've tightlined it and tried to make the felling cut in sound wood by going lower or higher. I've spiked up 6' and made the cuts and then broke it over with a 5:1 to get above rot like that.

If there was a chance of it hitting the lines a second retainer line would give you a margin of safety.

I overdo stuff sometimes just for amusement or practice... it's fun to play with gear.

 

[SkwerI]

Chip, it was a 45' spar. His son already brushed it out. How much side lean could there be? 50 bs? 75?

 

[Blinky]

Good point, but if one side held and the other was rot it could have rolled. It's really hard for me to actually make a judgment without being there.

If I'm in production mode and I get something like that, I tightline it and break it off the stump with MA rather than chasing it off with a saw... and count on it not being a precision fall.

After that maple thing last year, I get jumpy as hell climbing trees like that.

 

[stig]

Ok, why such a small face? Looking at the pics it seems it was right on the verge of a barberchair? I would think a bigger face would have helped this?
Pulling against the lean, loaded with a pull rope, if it sets back, it's not loaded!

"I would think" a larger face, loaded with a pull rope, cut it as fast as you can from the back and chase it off the stump?
Not picking on you at all Gary, using this to learn myself.

I must have missed an earlier discussion about facecuts.
Here we have the regional difference again, because I would not consider that a small face, but a perfect one.
In production falling I always make the smallest face, I can get away with, to save time.
My only reason to make a wider face would be to counter sidelean........the wider the hinge, the better it holds.
I don't think a smaller face leads to a barberchair as long as it is open enough.
Falling smallish trees for pulp, I'll just cut a line in the bark and then cut the hinge away as the tree is going down.

 

[sawinredneck]

I have had it beat into my head the face needs to be 1/4 to 1/3rd the thickness of the tree. In the barberchair thread, I had a heavy leaning Oak. I made a small face then backcut it normally. I should have made a larger face, then bore cut it. It barberchaired on me. I made a lot of mistakes on that tree.
For firewood I didn't used to make a face at all, maybe just a kerf cut, on smaller (under 12" trees). Kerf, then backcut and push them where I wanted them. Now I face just about all of them.
I am constantly cutting punky, fire damaged and hollow trees for the firewood. Granted I don't have the wires, but I have to watch for hangups and snags, so direction counts a LOT!
I hope to make anothr run tomorrow, I'll try and get some pics and let the masters crituiqe my methods.

 

[Burnham]

Gary, I assume you could not fall this tree in either the direction that had the rot or opposite to the rot, correct? For those would be the first, best choices for forming a hinge with solid wood at each corner. As it was done, you had no functioning hinge on the left side as you look down the lay. In my view, this was the chancy thing going on here...that choice, either freely made or forced, made this a riskier fall than it otherwise would have been.

Others have questioned you placement of a wedge on the right side of the back cut, near the hinge. Given that you had to face it in the direction that you did, I would have firmly set one wedge there, as you did, to keep the tree from shifting right should the lack of good hingewood on the left cause the hinge to fail and allow the tree to fall off the right side of the hinge, perpendicular to your face. Boring the back cut allowed you to do so...it might be argued that if you had not bored, then the wedge would not be needed, but given that you did, I like the wedge there.

The second wedge was not really needed, given the pull line, but I generally like to stick one in by hand, as has been mentioned, just in case something goes south with the pull.

Moving the tree to commit to the face with your Z rig is easy, and in concert with making the back cut is very effective. Doing it solo was not the best idea given the shaky condition of the hingewood, my friend. As has been properly pointed out, frickin' around the base of that tree, stopping, starting, stopping, starting...not a good plan.

 

[stig]

I have had it beat into my head the face needs to be 1/4 to 1/3rd the thickness of the tree.

I'm not trying to be an asshole, here.
It is just that we do things different over here and the way I have been trained, is to make as small a face as possible, unless there is a specific reason to do otherwise.
If you check my homepage www.skoventreprenoeren.dk
You'll find a video of me knocking a beech tree over in the bottom of the front page. That shows how it's done here.

I think it is interesting that methods vary from one part of the world to another. This means we can learn stuff from one another in a different way, than if we all did everything the same. It also forces us to think and reason about why we do it in our particular way.
That is also why I love to discuss tecnique with guys like Burnham and Beranek, they don't just do stuff, but always have a reason why.
I have worked in a lot of different countries including the US and learnt a lot of stuff. For ecsample I started using the long plastic wedges because I ran across them in California, now I import the hardhead wedges, and they are slowly catching on here instead of steel or aluminum wedges,that traditionally have been used here.
My apprentise have been showing them off at the danish forestry school and I got a call from them the other week, that they wanted to buy some to use when teaching new fallers. That way the next generation of fallers in Denmark will be influenced by me having worked in the US. I find that pretty neat.

 

[Burnham]

Indeed it is, Stig...really neat.

 

[sawinredneck]

I'm not trying to be an asshole, here.
It is just that we do things different over here and the way I have been trained, is to make as small a face as possible, unless there is a specific reason to do otherwise.
If you check my homepage www.skoventreprenoeren.dk
You'll find a video of me knocking a beech tree over in the bottom of the front page. That shows how it's done here.

I think it is interesting that methods vary from one part of the world to another. This means we can learn stuff from one another in a different way, than if we all did everything the same. It also forces us to think and reason about why we do it in our particular way.
That is also why I love to discuss tecnique with guys like Burnham and Beranek, they don't just do stuff, but always have a reason why.
I have worked in a lot of different countries including the US and learnt a lot of stuff. For ecsample I started using the long plastic wedges because I ran across them in California, now I import the hardhead wedges, and they are slowly catching on here instead of steel or aluminum wedges,that traditionally have been used here.
My apprentise have been showing them off at the danish forestry school and I got a call from them the other week, that they wanted to buy some to use when teaching new fallers. That way the next generation of fallers in Denmark will be influenced by me having worked in the US. I find that pretty neat.

I don't think you are an asshole at all!!! Keep in mind I am just an idiot trying to learn!! I ask lots of questions in hopes of gaining a better understanding!!!
"Question everything, hope you can learn something."

 

[pantheraba]

Gary, I assume you could not fall this tree in either the direction that had the rot or opposite to the rot, correct? For those would be the first, best choices for forming a hinge with solid wood at each corner. As it was done, you had no functioning hinge on the left side as you look down the lay. In my view, this was the chancy thing going on here...that choice, either freely made or forced, made this a riskier fall than it otherwise would have been.

Others have questioned you placement of a wedge on the right side of the back cut, near the hinge. Given that you had to face it in the direction that you did, I would have firmly set one wedge there, as you did, to keep the tree from shifting right should the lack of good hingewood on the left cause the hinge to fail and allow the tree to fall off the right side of the hinge, perpendicular to your face. Boring the back cut allowed you to do so...it might be argued that if you had not bored, then the wedge would not be needed, but given that you did, I like the wedge there.

The second wedge was not really needed, given the pull line, but I generally like to stick one in by hand, as has been mentioned, just in case something goes south with the pull.

Moving the tree to commit to the face with your Z rig is easy, and in concert with making the back cut is very effective. Doing it solo was not the best idea given the shaky condition of the hingewood, my friend. As has been properly pointed out, frickin' around the base of that tree, stopping, starting, stopping, starting...not a good plan.

You read it all correctly, Burnham...the attached diagram shows it. 10-4 on frickin' around the base of the tree...I'll make it a point to have a rope tender/puller at the z-rig anchor point next time...point taken.

Stig, thanks for your input...the facecut discussion is interesting.

.

 

[Wagnaw]

That's a sweet picture of the surroundings

 

[pantheraba]

That's a sweet picture of the surroundings

Thanks....First time I have tried depicting a scene like that...it's a program I use at work (drawing x-ray rooms), didn't know it had landscaping elements.

 

[Bounce]

Too much! Augghhh! Cut tree, pull rope, go home.

 

[pantheraba]

Wait...you don't do that for EVERY tree job you do?????

hahahha....yeah, I understand...I must have been bored.

 

[Bounce]

Actually Gary, that is how I learned how to set up my pulley system, by installing it on trees I didn't have to use it on. Once I got to where I felt comfortable with the set up time, I stopped doing it unless I really needed it.

 

[pantheraba]

Practice, practice...I understand...developing a bag of tricks. I have said it before...I came along in a tree-cutting information vacuum from about 1973 to 1995. When I read of wedges, pulley systems, various and nefarious types of face cuts, back cuts, bore cuts, etc. here....well, you know, I just GOTTA try that stuff. Honestly, I don't try to do it all together but I guess it did look kind of like that.

 

[stig]

Nefarious facecuts are an old tradition in Denmark

 

[Burnham]

Or is that simply nefarious faces???

 

[pantheraba]

Hahaha...you guys are nuts!!

 

[woodworkingboy]

Gary, expediency not withstanding, I think it's real cool that you pay attention to rot the way you do (kind of a funny way to put it, maybe).
I sometimes forget to look for rot inside the stump when cutting, and man I have been burned as a result, such that it pains to even think about those instances. Nobody got killed though.

 

[pantheraba]

Gary, expediency not withstanding, I think it's real cool that you pay attention to rot the way you do (kind of a funny way to put it, maybe).
I sometimes forget to look for rot inside the stump when cutting, and man I have been burned as a result, such that it pains to even think about those instances. Nobody got killed though.

Well, there you go...."Nobody got killed" is always a good measure of a successful day

I have been known to sacrifice expediency for practice and to interject more certainty to dicey situations.