Burnham
Woods walker
That's the downfall of that cut, I guess...same problem with boring for the gap.
Yup, twisted grain will screw it up, big time.
I posted this one just before going to California last year.
When I met Jerry B. , he said: "I've found the solution to your problem"
"Just make the back cut out of level, so it is above the hinge on the side where fibers run forwards and below where they run backwards."
Blew my mind, really!
An astounding example of thinking out of the box.
The man is a total genius when it comes to wood fiber
Trying to think like him has made me so much more knowledgeable about what I do when falling trees.
I posted this one just before going to California last year.
When I met Jerry B. , he said: "I've found the solution to your problem"
"Just make the back cut out of level, so it is above the hinge on the side where fibers run forwards and below where they run backwards."
Blew my mind, really!
An astounding example of thinking out of the box.
The man is a total genius when it comes to wood fiber
Trying to think like him has made me so much more knowledgeable about what I do when falling trees.
Burnham
Woods walker
Brilliant!
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
Perfect...
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
Great comments.
So myself on a dead tree I've always favored (like the OP Shaun) a open face to allow whatever hing you get to work as long as possible. I more often than not don't cut alot of stumpshot into my backcut unless I feel there's a reason for it, so quite a even backcut. Some here seem a little divided on whether a higher backcut adds or detracts from the hinge. I see the point about overcutting it easier maybe if that's what you meen Willard, but as long as the sawyer doesn't do that would the hinge be stronger, weaker, or negligible difference?
Now with the vertical bore under the front of the hinge would that work best with a blocked out face? And Stig on your pics there maybe it's just the angle or whatever but the 1st one looks like the vertical bore may be slightly angled?
Also Stig, rather than list a million species that apply to everyone and how they decay, blah, blah, blah. I was somewhat obviously not referring to a type of tree where the heartwood remains the strongest point. I kind of figured in trees where the heartwood rots out 1st or quicker and provides less of the strength of the hinge that it would be kind of moot to bore the guts out anyways, but wanted to see what others thoughts. Because on sound trees it's very effective and on sound spars it's pretty much a nescessity.
So myself on a dead tree I've always favored (like the OP Shaun) a open face to allow whatever hing you get to work as long as possible. I more often than not don't cut alot of stumpshot into my backcut unless I feel there's a reason for it, so quite a even backcut. Some here seem a little divided on whether a higher backcut adds or detracts from the hinge. I see the point about overcutting it easier maybe if that's what you meen Willard, but as long as the sawyer doesn't do that would the hinge be stronger, weaker, or negligible difference?
Now with the vertical bore under the front of the hinge would that work best with a blocked out face? And Stig on your pics there maybe it's just the angle or whatever but the 1st one looks like the vertical bore may be slightly angled?
Also Stig, rather than list a million species that apply to everyone and how they decay, blah, blah, blah. I was somewhat obviously not referring to a type of tree where the heartwood remains the strongest point. I kind of figured in trees where the heartwood rots out 1st or quicker and provides less of the strength of the hinge that it would be kind of moot to bore the guts out anyways, but wanted to see what others thoughts. Because on sound trees it's very effective and on sound spars it's pretty much a nescessity.
HolmenTree
Banned
We have to remember this thread is centered on felling a dead dormant fiber tree. If I was going to give advice to the masses out there, I would say make a level backcut in a backleaner so the unlucky one out there won't overcut the hinge with a stepped backcut on the backleaner.
I've done it myself ,it's easy to misjudge fibre position on a backleaner.
For my opinion which is stronger, a hinge with a backcut stepped or level in dormant fibre.......I would say neither. The only advantage with a step back face is the resulting ledge would offer some rearward stability.
I have a test for you all ............ to see if a stepped back cut hinge is stronger then a level backcut hinge in dormant wood. Make these cuts with a 90 degree facecut included in the middle of 2 different small dry limbs. Then bend each limb to the hinge completely closing, the results will tell.
Then try this test with softwood and hardwood to confirm any differences.
Best method would be to have the bottom of the limb clamped in a bench vise.
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
What is meant by "dormant fiber"? You are referring to fiber that has lost moisture content? If dormant simply means that it is no longer growing, you have to be specific about moisture content to know to what degree the hinge wood is affected. Dead high moisture content wood reacts the same as living, I believe, to a large degree.
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
It's an interesting thing too, some wood will bend better without the fibers separating, after it has dried out a bit. At least steam bending wood has that characteristic.
HolmenTree
Banned
In a live tree we all know heartwood is dormant, the sapwood is the living "strength " of hingewood.
When a tree is dead whether moist like DED elm or dry [below 20% moisture content] then the sapwood can be now dormant just like heartwood in a living tree.
But until we can decide what specie the OP trees are we can talk forever in circles.
Another important point about hardwood and softwood species: Hardwood "tend" to support themselves at the pedestal with tension wood on the flare opposite to the lean. Think of this flare as a cable.
Softwood [conifer] support with compression wood at the flare on the side of its lean.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
There's another former tree guy around here, that was a big Shigo disciple.. He used to get a little bent when I'd write "dead tree".. The trees not dead... its filled with all kinds of life, bacteria, fungal etc... Call it a "symplastless tree"... oh ya.. that'll look great on the proposals..
Definitely easy to misjudge the hinge fibers on a backleaner with stumpshot. I'd go level with the backcut for that reason and becasue the more brittle the fibers the more tendency for stump shot to blow up a hinge..
What do you all think about: "sapwood is the living "strength " of hingewood"... I thought Jay nixed that idea.... certainly has not been my experience, except when the heart is punky... Sometimes on a dead tree, the heart is what lasts as it rots from the outside. This oak had been dead for 4 or more years, probably 5 or 6... I was amazed at how well the hinge held in the heartwood... There's a good shot of the hinge at 8:00...
<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/p04sxvuZu7E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Definitely easy to misjudge the hinge fibers on a backleaner with stumpshot. I'd go level with the backcut for that reason and becasue the more brittle the fibers the more tendency for stump shot to blow up a hinge..
What do you all think about: "sapwood is the living "strength " of hingewood"... I thought Jay nixed that idea.... certainly has not been my experience, except when the heart is punky... Sometimes on a dead tree, the heart is what lasts as it rots from the outside. This oak had been dead for 4 or more years, probably 5 or 6... I was amazed at how well the hinge held in the heartwood... There's a good shot of the hinge at 8:00...
<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/p04sxvuZu7E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
HolmenTree
Banned
I wish I could have videoed the countless DED American elm I have felled. Upon starting out with a thick hinge I could whittle the back of the hinge and slowly under control lower the tree to the ground......even stop the tree at mid fall arc.
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
Elm is one of the best woods for split to not run out. Why it was used for wagon hubs and wooden gears on flour grinding machines.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
I like this idea for toying with methods or intricacies of hinge characteristics. Thanks for that.
I tried Stig's vertical bore cut at the front of the notch yesterday in a declining (not totally dead) red oak. It started raining on us and I forgot to take pics, but it made a unique looking stump. It ripped out the entire hinge area when it went over. I couldn't tell for sure if it held any longer/better than a normal cut, but it worked out fine. I'll probably try it again in the future to see how it works with different species.
sierratree
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2011
- Messages
- 171
also should think about how much will the tree give you, as well as is it solid, hollow, rotten, etc. another critical element is the exposure time you would be spending under the tree while you're putting in the undercut, backcut. might not have enough time to put in a block face, chop it out, make it perfect. keep in mind are there assets you need to avoid, which would require you to spend more time under the tree. kind of off topic, but relates to the type of undercut you would use.
HolmenTree
Banned
I hope this helps you Justin.
Another good trick to understand the physics of a tree falling is a demonstration of the dynamics of the 90 degree to lay guying technique.
Take a 2'X2' piece of plywood with a hole drilled in the middle ,big enough hole to hold the butt of a 2' long limb in place, tight enough so the limb doesn't twist [do some whittling] .
On your table top you now have a "tree" at your disposal to "fell". Tie a string [guy rope] to the top of this limb and the other end anchored with tension held by a thumb tack to the edge of the plywood 90 degree to the lay. Make sure you put a side lean into the "tree" opposite side of the guy .
Practice making different facecuts and backcuts with a hacksaw blade and then lower the "tree" with your hand to the plywood observing how the guy line interacts to the lay.
Even try anchoring the guy line behind the tree with a greater then 90 degree to lay, and see what happens.
I have practiced this over and over again with all kinds of different applications. I found doing all of this really helps me understand how I can put a tree on the ground where I want it to go, with confidence and no second guessing.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
Ya that's fantastic. I don't know why I haven't really done that before. I always think to myself, "Well I'll try that out when the right situation arises to practice it". But then I go back to my safe and sound basic falling methods, which always have served me well so I keep using them. But I see a model now as being a good way to incorporate new techniques before risking property or safety to 'practicing' in the field.
I know that you are a big proponent of the 90 to lay guying and this will be a fantastic way to see on a small scale how that works out.
Cheers!
I know that you are a big proponent of the 90 to lay guying and this will be a fantastic way to see on a small scale how that works out.
Cheers!
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
Is there a consensus here about either of these two points?
Al Smith
Mac Daddy
Well I'll tell ya what those 3 feet diameter dead oaks are tough SOB's as far as holding strength .You might have to get it down to less than a 1" thick hinge before you can tip it with wedges depending on the natural lean .You try on 2" of hinge all you do is beat the pizz out of the wedges .
sotc
Dormant hero!!
Sure
HolmenTree
Banned
Just a little Shigo information I put out there , to maybe help a treeworker better understand trees before he puts the saw in the backcut.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
I've heard it attributed to Shigo that the center of a hinge has less strength than the outer "sapwood".. Someone else said definitely not something Shigo said.. can you cite Shigo on either point?Just a little Shigo information I put out there , to maybe help a treeworker better understand trees before he puts the saw in the backcut.
HolmenTree
Banned
I don't understand what your trying to say Mr Beaver.............
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
You made the statement: "we all know heartwood is dormant, the sapwood is the living "strength " of hingewood." Can you site Shigo's writings on this point?... Jay made a couple posts about the heartwood having more strength in woodworking applications... in looking at hinge fibers it often appears as though the heartwood does the most holding..
sotc
Dormant hero!!
Heart wood on a tree normally tends to be less limber unless the sap wood is other wise compromised ime.
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