squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
Yah. It's crazy for me to read your thoughts and journey Jim. I can't imagine. I feel overwhelmed at times managing my little hobby farm. Lol.
alternatives in land use
- Thread starter DMc
- Start date
- Replies 877
- Views 65K
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Jim is the real deal!
Cobleskill
Treehouser
There used to be a lot of people thought we were "dumb farmers." Seems people appreciate farmers more these days.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
I loved Green Acres!
Cobleskill
Treehouser
Fred Silverman canceled Petticoat Junction, Green Acres, and the Beverly Hillbillies when they were all still wildly popular. He wanted to get rid of the "rural image' CBS had developed.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
Farming is cool.
I love getting the hay off of my little seven acres and caring for it to maximize my yield. I'm just scratching the surface of learning a bit. I'm fortunate that I have made a connection with a really knowledgeable old retired farmer/rancher. The biggest local ranch still hires him to consult for them and he's going to come by this spring and have a coffee and walk my field with me just to help me out. You can bet I'll have a pen and clipboard handy for that walk/conversation.
To clarify I just grow my hay, I pay a farmer to bale it in the field, and then I pick it all, store it, use it, sell it. I'd love to have my own hay equipment but it'll never make financial sense for just my little field, even if I took three cuts a year.
I'm just a hobbyist.
I love getting the hay off of my little seven acres and caring for it to maximize my yield. I'm just scratching the surface of learning a bit. I'm fortunate that I have made a connection with a really knowledgeable old retired farmer/rancher. The biggest local ranch still hires him to consult for them and he's going to come by this spring and have a coffee and walk my field with me just to help me out. You can bet I'll have a pen and clipboard handy for that walk/conversation.
To clarify I just grow my hay, I pay a farmer to bale it in the field, and then I pick it all, store it, use it, sell it. I'd love to have my own hay equipment but it'll never make financial sense for just my little field, even if I took three cuts a year.
I'm just a hobbyist.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
I have another cover crop, regenerative ag meeting tomorrow. I seem to be a required element for anyone's meetings anymore.
Some salesmen coming tomorrow. I shall be on high alert for bullshittery!
I know this stuff gets boring as hell, but I learned another tid bit yesterday.
A common practice in organic farming, and one that I have mentioned before, mentioned that I was skeptical about but did not know why, is to plant yellow clover seed with your wheat seed in the spring.
Yellow clover seed does not germinate that first year, it is an every other year deal. Not quite sure why that is, but we do see it out on the prairie. One year or another will be a "clover" year. Damn stuff is everywhere....every other year.
Anyway, the idea is to plant a nitrogen fixing crop. It is supposed to provide nitrogen for the crop planted the year after the clover is terminated....plowed down with a heavy disc.
Also, it is supposed to increase organic matter in the soil. Makes sense right? Take a crap load of plant flesh and bury it.
The problems I have with the practice is that after June 15 the crop is to be terminated. That means that the "cover crop" is no longer covering anything. You just have to summer fallow it the rest of the year. With that you have all the regular problems of moisture loss, high soil temps, decreased soil biology, and erosion....both wind and water.
I was visiting with my uncle a while ago and he mentioned that they have not been seeing a protein boost in their organic wheat. He has been organic for 30 years or so and has been doing this yellow clover planting for many years.
Nitrogen in the soils, which is fixed by legumes or added with fertilizer, is what really makes protein in your wheat. Low protein wheat is severely discounted.
So I asked my NRCS man about it.
He explained to me that planting yellow clover or peas with the idea of plowing it down early is actually decreasing the plant available nitrogen in the soil.
WAT? I says!
Apparently when you plow a crop like that down it causes most of the plant matter to be converted to nitrogen in 20 days. That huge boost in plant matter causes the underground biology to go into over drive converting the biomass into plant available nitrogen. Once that occours other plants and bacteria go into over drive consuming that nitrogen.
When they have all of that used up, they turn to other sources of nitrogen in the soil for food. The end result is that you end up with less nitrogen that when you started.
The only way to store that nitrogen boost for another cash crop planted in the fall or next spring would be to plant a nitrogen scavenging plant to capture and hold that nitrogen. Something that very few producers do.
Another problem with having a crap load of plant available nitrogen just sitting in the soil is that it is also available for leaching and volitization. If no plants are there to hold the nitrogen, it just washes or evaporates away.
The solution is a catch crop, like radishes or turnips, or you could leave that crop of clover standing so that it breaks down more slowly.
A better idea is to plant a full season, diverse cover crop and leave the damn thing alone.
Some salesmen coming tomorrow. I shall be on high alert for bullshittery!
I know this stuff gets boring as hell, but I learned another tid bit yesterday.
A common practice in organic farming, and one that I have mentioned before, mentioned that I was skeptical about but did not know why, is to plant yellow clover seed with your wheat seed in the spring.
Yellow clover seed does not germinate that first year, it is an every other year deal. Not quite sure why that is, but we do see it out on the prairie. One year or another will be a "clover" year. Damn stuff is everywhere....every other year.
Anyway, the idea is to plant a nitrogen fixing crop. It is supposed to provide nitrogen for the crop planted the year after the clover is terminated....plowed down with a heavy disc.
Also, it is supposed to increase organic matter in the soil. Makes sense right? Take a crap load of plant flesh and bury it.
The problems I have with the practice is that after June 15 the crop is to be terminated. That means that the "cover crop" is no longer covering anything. You just have to summer fallow it the rest of the year. With that you have all the regular problems of moisture loss, high soil temps, decreased soil biology, and erosion....both wind and water.
I was visiting with my uncle a while ago and he mentioned that they have not been seeing a protein boost in their organic wheat. He has been organic for 30 years or so and has been doing this yellow clover planting for many years.
Nitrogen in the soils, which is fixed by legumes or added with fertilizer, is what really makes protein in your wheat. Low protein wheat is severely discounted.
So I asked my NRCS man about it.
He explained to me that planting yellow clover or peas with the idea of plowing it down early is actually decreasing the plant available nitrogen in the soil.
WAT? I says!
Apparently when you plow a crop like that down it causes most of the plant matter to be converted to nitrogen in 20 days. That huge boost in plant matter causes the underground biology to go into over drive converting the biomass into plant available nitrogen. Once that occours other plants and bacteria go into over drive consuming that nitrogen.
When they have all of that used up, they turn to other sources of nitrogen in the soil for food. The end result is that you end up with less nitrogen that when you started.
The only way to store that nitrogen boost for another cash crop planted in the fall or next spring would be to plant a nitrogen scavenging plant to capture and hold that nitrogen. Something that very few producers do.
Another problem with having a crap load of plant available nitrogen just sitting in the soil is that it is also available for leaching and volitization. If no plants are there to hold the nitrogen, it just washes or evaporates away.
The solution is a catch crop, like radishes or turnips, or you could leave that crop of clover standing so that it breaks down more slowly.
A better idea is to plant a full season, diverse cover crop and leave the damn thing alone.
My Dad planted Vetch in his walnut orchard for a cover crop. The only problem was that after about 4 years the wild oats got huge and were a big problem to remove the brush from winter pruning. A bugger to work in to the ground with a disc also. As I understand it cover crops temporarily decrease available nitrogen because the bacteria that breaks down the plant material consumes nitrogen but it is only temporary.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Do walnut trees like nitrogen? I dont know anything about trees, I only have the one. What kind of management do they need?
Vetch is a prolific supplier of nitrogen, as I understand it. I guess a very thick crop of vetch left growing in the ground for a long time can actually fix enough nitrogen to damage other seedlings.
Can you utilize animals to graze the vetch around a walnut tree, or is that impractical?
I guess the down side to the yellow clover is that the bacteria that are working on the plant material are fed too much, too quickly. Everything gets out of whack. The carbon/nitrogen ratio of legumes is very low....very easily broken down....perhaps too easily. Again, I dont know for sure
I have read you last sentence several times, but I cant figure it out.....why it would only be temporary. Have to think on that some more.
Part of what I dont understand is that conventional soil tests find soils that are high in organic matter to be often deficient in nitrogen. Those same soils can raise crops with adequate protein though.
There must be something else going on here. Like soils high in "N" are often low in organic matter, and soils high in organic matter are often low on "N".
Maybe the added synthetic fertilizer,, or maybe even fixed natural "N" is actually a detriment to the soils because it throws the biological balance out of whack? Carbon/Nitrogen ratios? Some bugs eat carbon, some eat nitrogen....
Too many questions in my head!
Vetch is a prolific supplier of nitrogen, as I understand it. I guess a very thick crop of vetch left growing in the ground for a long time can actually fix enough nitrogen to damage other seedlings.
Can you utilize animals to graze the vetch around a walnut tree, or is that impractical?
I guess the down side to the yellow clover is that the bacteria that are working on the plant material are fed too much, too quickly. Everything gets out of whack. The carbon/nitrogen ratio of legumes is very low....very easily broken down....perhaps too easily. Again, I dont know for sure
I have read you last sentence several times, but I cant figure it out.....why it would only be temporary. Have to think on that some more.
Part of what I dont understand is that conventional soil tests find soils that are high in organic matter to be often deficient in nitrogen. Those same soils can raise crops with adequate protein though.
There must be something else going on here. Like soils high in "N" are often low in organic matter, and soils high in organic matter are often low on "N".
Maybe the added synthetic fertilizer,, or maybe even fixed natural "N" is actually a detriment to the soils because it throws the biological balance out of whack? Carbon/Nitrogen ratios? Some bugs eat carbon, some eat nitrogen....
Too many questions in my head!
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Maybe the answer is to plant more diverse mixes. The yellow clover, or your father's vetch is planted as a mono culture, and high nitrogen, low carbon. It is only supplying one kind of bug what it wants.
Plants like flax and wheat are high carbon, low nitrogen, just the opposite. But in a mono culture it is only really working for one side of the house.
I do know that oats are an excellent nitrogen scavenger, and an excellent nitrogen storing plant. Plus they are a good soil builder.
Maybe the wild oats were really thick in his orchard because of an excess of nitrogen in the soil. They went to work naturally because the soil biology was out of whack.
Maybe if there had been some high carbon grasses planted along with the vetch the oats might not have become a problem? Or maybe walnut trees need lots of nitrogen and wild oats are just evil....which they are.
Just spit balling here!
Plants like flax and wheat are high carbon, low nitrogen, just the opposite. But in a mono culture it is only really working for one side of the house.
I do know that oats are an excellent nitrogen scavenger, and an excellent nitrogen storing plant. Plus they are a good soil builder.
Maybe the wild oats were really thick in his orchard because of an excess of nitrogen in the soil. They went to work naturally because the soil biology was out of whack.
Maybe if there had been some high carbon grasses planted along with the vetch the oats might not have become a problem? Or maybe walnut trees need lots of nitrogen and wild oats are just evil....which they are.
Just spit balling here!
I worked for an organic farmer in Schweiz back in the 70es.
From what he told me, Steve is quite right about the nitrogen.
As the cover crop breaks down, the nitrogen level goes down, but later goes up again.
So you need to time it right in order to have that nitrogen on hand for your follow up crop.
I don't know what your soil is like, but on our dense, fairly compact soil, a cover vrop with deep roots does wonders to loosen the soil structure.
I use Phacelia in my garden.
From what he told me, Steve is quite right about the nitrogen.
As the cover crop breaks down, the nitrogen level goes down, but later goes up again.
So you need to time it right in order to have that nitrogen on hand for your follow up crop.
I don't know what your soil is like, but on our dense, fairly compact soil, a cover vrop with deep roots does wonders to loosen the soil structure.
I use Phacelia in my garden.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #562
Soil testing for N is a funny deal and the results can be extremely misleading. They test for available N, typically nitrate, that is in the sample at the time of testing. Tests are also performed at a specific depth.
None of this will give a true picture of what N will become available through mineralization of soil organic matter. This is the answer to the mystery of how low measures of N in high organic matter soils can produce so well in the apparent absence fo sufficient N.
It is a common misunderstand that covers "must" be terminated for their nitrogen to become available. Many examples of this in multi-crop plantings. Mineralization takes place in the nitrogen rich root exudates and sloughed-off root tissues. This N is available to other plants growing with the legumes.
Steve Mack
Life Member.
Dave, your post made me think of Alfalfa. Might not be suitable for Jim but it's a good nitrogen storer. https://www.pioneer.com/home/site/us/silage-zone/alfalfa_grow/alfalfanitrogen/
Catch 22 has a good Alfalfa story.
Catch 22 has a good Alfalfa story.
Cobleskill
Treehouser
They don't mention how expensive the seed is.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
I planted phacelia on 500 acres Stig. What I think they are finding is that a whole load of nitrogen just sitting around is vulnerable to disappearing.
Dave, I guess they are working on better tests for producers like me.
We use a lot of alfalfa Steve. Mostly in long term, diverse rotations.
Dave, I guess they are working on better tests for producers like me.
We use a lot of alfalfa Steve. Mostly in long term, diverse rotations.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #566
Yes, lots of soil poking and prodding, charts and graphs being created. They need to accept the premise that nitrogen is not a growth "limiting" factor but instead a growth "regulating" system. That may seem like semantics, but understanding that the soil in its entirety will only produce as much nitrogen as is sustainable. If you want more nitrogen availability do not focus on "adding" nitrogen but instead focus on all the possible reasons and ways to improve that land thereby improving the potential, for supported growth.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
My head spins when I read most of this yet I'm about to jump into some farming enterprise of my own. I have a whopping seven acres of hayfield that does quite well. The field is split by my driveway and one side is about three acres and the other side is about four acres. So now that I've gotten my hay production way up through chemical fertilizing and irrigation I'm going to take out about a acre this year and start growing some different crops. My plan this year is to plant as much of that acre into garlic this fall as possible.
My place has not been treated with any herbicide for the last decade and has only seen minimal chemical(pellet) fertilizer. It also hasn't been tilled at all for atleast a decade and is all grass/clover/weeds in the field. So I'm starting to look at how best to prep this acre for the fall? I've got a second generation rancher/farmer coming over on Friday morning to walk my field with me and discuss some things. I'll also be meeting with my local agriculture rep hopefully early next week.
I've got a lot of composted manure and wood chips that I can amend my soil with so will be studying various methods of getting the acre ready for garlic this fall. My plan is to market garden other crops as well. I've got a couple really good ins with a local food co-OP who will take any produce I produce that is bee-safe(no spray) but doesn't have to be certified organic or anything like that. Up here it seems certified organic is losing ground to bee-safe/no spray production.
I figure I'm already suffering the expense of the land and water(I have near limitless irrigation water from mid April to mid September and can even have it turned on early or off later for a minimal fee if required. So I'm about to learn/expirement/fail/succeed and all that fun stuff that comes with farming.
So far I have many more questions than answers about the best way to convert this land from grass/clover to row crops.
When I've sussed out a plan of attack I'll run it by y'all here and look for further input.
My place has not been treated with any herbicide for the last decade and has only seen minimal chemical(pellet) fertilizer. It also hasn't been tilled at all for atleast a decade and is all grass/clover/weeds in the field. So I'm starting to look at how best to prep this acre for the fall? I've got a second generation rancher/farmer coming over on Friday morning to walk my field with me and discuss some things. I'll also be meeting with my local agriculture rep hopefully early next week.
I've got a lot of composted manure and wood chips that I can amend my soil with so will be studying various methods of getting the acre ready for garlic this fall. My plan is to market garden other crops as well. I've got a couple really good ins with a local food co-OP who will take any produce I produce that is bee-safe(no spray) but doesn't have to be certified organic or anything like that. Up here it seems certified organic is losing ground to bee-safe/no spray production.
I figure I'm already suffering the expense of the land and water(I have near limitless irrigation water from mid April to mid September and can even have it turned on early or off later for a minimal fee if required. So I'm about to learn/expirement/fail/succeed and all that fun stuff that comes with farming.
So far I have many more questions than answers about the best way to convert this land from grass/clover to row crops.
When I've sussed out a plan of attack I'll run it by y'all here and look for further input.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Thats exciting! I bet you could grow some really good garlic.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
pantheraba
More biners!!!
My head spins, too, but I keep coming back to read it...repeated exposure makes some of it sink in. Y'all keep thrashing this out.
I can tell you that my grandfather had a farm in S. GA and raised crops and cows. I remember seeing a sign over one of his fields in the 70's saying there was alfalfa planted there..one of his fallow crops is what I figured.
I can tell you that my grandfather had a farm in S. GA and raised crops and cows. I remember seeing a sign over one of his fields in the 70's saying there was alfalfa planted there..one of his fallow crops is what I figured.
Cobleskill
Treehouser
Seed companies like to mark their fields with their brand to show how good it is. I am guessing that is why the sign was there. He probably raised it for his cows. It does soil good even if not a fallow crop. Expensive seed and a heavy feeder of K.
pantheraba
More biners!!!
Good input...always wondered why a sign would be posted. He probably did graze the cows there, too.
FireFighterZero
Captain Zero!
Well, the cover crop meeting was kind of lame.
Just a sales pitch, more or less.
It must be kind of hard to put these meetings on, some folks are looking for answers, some are looking for information, some are looking for products. Never fails, some FNG needs started from scratch.
I honestly believe that the NRCS man and I could put together a better meeting on our own. No need for a sales pitch.
A salesman does not know what works here, has a quota, and cant relate to the producer. ''
I saw several producers ask questions that I had wondered about a couple years ago. I think we can do better.
Just a sales pitch, more or less.
It must be kind of hard to put these meetings on, some folks are looking for answers, some are looking for information, some are looking for products. Never fails, some FNG needs started from scratch.
I honestly believe that the NRCS man and I could put together a better meeting on our own. No need for a sales pitch.
A salesman does not know what works here, has a quota, and cant relate to the producer. ''
I saw several producers ask questions that I had wondered about a couple years ago. I think we can do better.
Do it. Destiny calls.
Similar threads
