alternatives in land use

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All the gardening I've done personally has been tilled and always seem to have done extremely well. Whereas my parents are no till and their gardens do well too?

Tilling the land up and then using a cultivator or tine type tool to control weeds seems easier. But more equipment intensive so more expensive and destroying the structure of the soil?

I've talked with over the last week one fellow who did commercial garlic on a large scale (60,000bulbs last year) and he used a machine/attachment for planting and harvesting into tilled land. He's a neighbour. Another neighbour does what I'd have to guess is acouple to three acres of garlic and he has tilled up the whole thing with a mouldboard plow?
I have another neighbour who is a second generation vegetable farm on 20 acres and it's all till as far as I can tell.

I guess fear is holding me back a bit too. I hate to be the guy who didn't till and so end up with teeny tiny garlic? Our soil is high in clay around these parts so I wonder if that is a consideration?

I will be hunting down the ministry agrologist next week and get her take on things too.

I do want to stay no spray/bee safe. As I feel that's the market here for the small producer.

Farming/ag stuff is very interesting to me like treework. Dead simple in its most basic form, yet vastly complex when you actually start to learn about it. I dont want to end up being a hack of a farmer. Lol.
 
Common thinking is that mechanical manipulation creates light good rooting soil and it does but at a cost of continually degrading the soil. Soil life will also create good rooting soil by chemical and mechanical manipulation with the big plus of it being eminently sustainable.

The power that drives this process is photosynthesis. The more green you have above ground the more life activity you will have below ground. This life not only opens pore space it keeps it open and stable. This is one of the reasons that well established grasslands have such nice deep soil. Grasses are poor at being able to store energy in above ground structure, so they do it below ground. You can't have one without the other so your ground should test well. You can do some testing yourself if you are so inclined. There are information sheets available from NRCS online for free download that give good instruction on how to go about it. Search "soil quality indicator sheets from NRCS", look for physical properties and there should be a whole slew of pdfs.
 
Thanks. I'll do that. I have inspected my soil myself. But with no real scientific process or understanding of what I was looking at.

I've learned almost enough to realize how little I know. But almost not quite enough for that even. :whine:

ive been reading a bunch about permaculture. But when I delve into their forums and topics about starting out. It seems most 'cheat' their way in by tilling initially and then moving away from it. That has been the impression I've gotten from scouring info about converting larger chunks of grass/pasture to row crops?

I really appreciat the input. I'm going to try to keep learning and not rush in and rip the earth apart.

Any thoughts/experience on possibly tilling initially or minimal tilling I've seen it referred to for a start up area vs full no till?
 
squisher said:
....Any thoughts/experience on possibly tilling initially or minimal tilling I've seen it referred to for a start up area vs full no till?
Click to expand...

Very common for start up. It might be your best bet. You are doing the right thing though by looking at your alternatives.
 
Yah. I don't know or fully understand yet if no till is going to be the answer. But I know that no rush is.

I'm going to study some before I do anything hasty.

I had the one experienced man come over, next week I'm going to hopefully connect with the ministry lady, and also at the end of the week(they are out of town) I'm going to have my parents over for A on-site and asses all the plans. I believe my parents would be aligned with your way of thinking in regards to no till and soil health Dave. They have gardened that way for many years. They are my in with a local food coop too as they helped establish it and volunteer there. So one of the things I've continuously read about small farming/market gardening is grow to your market. So no-till organically grown could be just that vs trying to 'go big' and competing with large scale commercial growers/pricing.

Scratch, scratch. That's the sound I'm making as I'm trying to find the surface, let alone scratch it. Lol.
 
DMc said:
... It is not possible to take off more than is put back and at the same time be sustainable. A fallow field is not resting and gaining resources for the next crop cycle it is losing resources by slowly killing off all the biota in the soil that are dependent on photosynthesized carbohydrates. The biota that bind the soil, maintaining pore space for oxygen and water, biota that make mineral and carbon-based nutrients plant available. They are what makes soil soil and not just dirt. All land-based life is dependent on this complex system if sustainably is to be considered.
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Justin, I made the above statement way back in the beginning of this thread. Keep it in mind because there is still far too many misconceptions in ag. Even though many producers have farmed with tillage and fertilisers for generations, even exceptional soil will eventually become a depleted shell of what it once was if effort is not made to maintain it. There is no argument that tillage and fertilisers have caused major problems.

The good news is there are better ways if one chooses to implement them. I think your idea of "growing your market" is sound. Advertise on on quality and taste not just size.
 
In my opinion, what you have now is about perfect. It may not seem like you have good soil structure, because it is not as loose as a bag of potting soil, but I dont believe that is the case.

Yes, water can cause compaction, so does the repeated trips over the field with haying machinery.

Nothing, and I do mean NOTHING causes compaction like tillage! Even after several years of no tilling my farm, there is still an almost unpenetrateable hard pan. It is about 6 inches down. Cultivation with a chisel plow and a disc has put that in the soil. My tillage radishes hit that plow layer and have to make a couple 90 degree turns to get past it....if they can.

Firm soil is not necessarily compacted soil. An example would be some of Gabe Brown's soil. He can drive his fields a couple of hours after a torrential rain. If I tried that....after tilling and tilling for years....I would sink out of sight!

Powdery, fine soil is bad. It has no pore space, it has no structure. Think of tilled soil like a house that falls down and crushes the people living in it every time a little wind or a light rain comes by.

Soil with good structure is like that same house with a super duty frame that resists falling down. With the house still standing after a storm, the people can continue living inside of it..they dont need to rebuild every time such an even happens.

When we till, we demolish the house. Over time, they house does not get rebuilt as strongly.




Right now, the alfalfa in your field and the grass has roots that go down into the soil several feet! Plants cant do that if the soil is compacted.

I am not sure how to completely eliminate tillage in an operation such as yours, I dont know how to eliminate it on my organic acres either.......neither does Gabe Brown!

The key is to minimize tillage, and still make a profit. The only problem is that tillage begets tillage! Spraying begets spraying!

One thing you might consider would be to strip till your field, and only enough to plant each row of garlic. You already have a thriving system that needs very little input from you.

Why convert your whole field into a system that is dependent on outside inputs to operate? I dont think that a garlic operation will have garlic planted on every square inch, right?

So why cultivate or spray acreage that does not need it? Instead of weeds growing between your rows of garlic, why not have grass and alfalfa growing between them? Those strips of soil would already have good biological life in them, have great water holding capacity, and good structure. They would be a good host for beneficial insects, and pollinators...including predatory wasps.

They would provide ground cover to conserve moisture and alfalfa is a nitrogen fixing plant.


Just an idea. I have no operational experience with such a plan, but I do rotor till my garden and it has a hell of a hard pan after only a few years.

One nice aspect of having a strip tilled operation like that is that the rows would catch snow, and provide protection for your garlic from the wind and weather.
 
This is fascinating to follow...learning a lot just by reading your conversations!
 
Why was it difficult to read, the surfing angle?
 
No, not at all. I am really sensitive to a sales pitch.

I would have a REALLY hard time doing that, and then not want to kick my own ass.

I have no problem sitting down and talking about these ideas and practices to people, but it does not seem like a sales pitch when I do.

Maybe that is bullshit.........maybe it is a sales pitch and I am trying to fool myself.
 
cory said:
The 2nd half of the article hits on the same stuff Jim is doing. Fascinating and encouraging that these ideas seem to be taking hold


http://www.rutlandherald.com/articles/using-soil-to-fight-climate-change/
Click to expand...

Good article.

One thought, reforestation may be a good idea, but reversing desertification might be a more obtainable goal.




You know me, I have to complain about something!


It will take some big changes to get the ball really rolling. Three quarters of the cover crops planted in my county last year were on my farm. The county is 4020 square miles!

Interest is growing, but people are reluctant to change. Hell, Gabe Brown...the patron saint of regenerative ag, has neighbors that farm the old way. Right across the fence.

There are huge obstacles to change.
 
FireFighterZero said:
There are huge obstacles to change.
Click to expand...

No question about it. But, one step at a time I think it's doable. Reason being that it Makes Sense on multiple levels, not the least of which is dollars and cents.
 
FireFighterZero said:
One thought, reforestation may be a good idea, but reversing desertification might be a more obtainable goal.
Click to expand...

I would think reversing desertification would be more difficult than reforestation? Can you 'plain some, thanks.
 
I just have to wonder, how many acres could you re-forest?

The areas would have to be managed quite heavily, wouldn't they? How long would it take to get the trees to a mature enough point that they could do the most good?


I am thinking that millions and millions of acres that are being grazed and managed improperly could be turned around in less time.
 
I was thinking grazable but improperly managed acres are far different than desert.
 
I didn't watch it yet but think I may have before- is he the guy advocating grazing on marginal lands to help bring them back from the brink of desertification?

I saw a link or two that claimed he was wrong about that, haven't watched them yet either.
 
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