CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
Awesome wood ! Nice to drop the bigguns. 
95" DBH+084+60" bar=KABOOM
- Thread starter Burnham
- Start date
- Replies 146
- Views 29K
sotc
Dormant hero!!
yeah dave, thanks for the add on pics
Burnham
Woods walker
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #53
I followed a guest to this old thread, too. Been a while...man, does time fly by. I think I started a couple of other threads about my hazard tree removal contractors that season, too. Maybe I'll go hunt for those, too. Good fun to stroll down memory lane, for me anyway .
.
sotc
Dormant hero!!
Great thread
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Why does the bark get shaved off?
Burnham
Woods walker
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #56
The saw's dogs don't stick well in oldgrowth Doug fir bark, it's soft and spongy. And it's really thick, like 6-8 inches on that tree...makes it harder to match up your face cuts if it's not removed. And if your bar is short by only a few inches, removing it can simplify the job.
18 stoner
But not stoned...
Nice to see this again Burnham, nice thread!
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
I've been educated!
Jed
TreeHouser
Yah.... Really cool.... Thanks! Pretty good shots for a low-light drizzly day! I doubt if Jerry thinks much about these new-fangled cameras, but I'll be darned.
G
Gord
Guest
When was that cannon bar made Burnham? Never seen one like it.
Ed L
Treehouser
Excellent thread Burnham, thanks for bringing it up!
FWIW, Cannons website. http://cannonbar.com/
Ed
FWIW, Cannons website. http://cannonbar.com/
Ed
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
Burnham,
I'm interested in the safety aspect of the hazardous tree removals, being that they can add a certain level of difficulty, if not risk, to the operation. I was kind of surprised that Danny, who had never used a big saw like that one, or removed a tree of that scale before, did the work. Obviously you supervised, which frames it in a level of expertise, but I assume given the number of trees that the contract called for, you didn't participate all the time. Are there some specific parameters set up to insure that the people doing the work are skilled to do so safely, beyond which, say falling healthy trees requires, they have experience at? That gets left up to the contractor, his bid, so his problem? It is obviously potentially hazardous work, and probably the gamut of situations that trees can get into, would any logging contractor in your area be capable of doing the job? I also wonder to what degree the situations are evaluated and discussed, before the removal operation begins. Presumably highly skilled people doing their jobs within the range of their capabilities, but as we have seen at the treehouse, sometimes seeking advice, like in the case not so long ago where Willie was looking at a dead tree to possibly take out, getting some additional assessment to get the best approach, is probably a good idea. Are you privilege to the operations as they take place, asked to participate in questionable situations? I'm wondering how the people doing the work go about it, to get the results required.
Thanks.
I'm interested in the safety aspect of the hazardous tree removals, being that they can add a certain level of difficulty, if not risk, to the operation. I was kind of surprised that Danny, who had never used a big saw like that one, or removed a tree of that scale before, did the work. Obviously you supervised, which frames it in a level of expertise, but I assume given the number of trees that the contract called for, you didn't participate all the time. Are there some specific parameters set up to insure that the people doing the work are skilled to do so safely, beyond which, say falling healthy trees requires, they have experience at? That gets left up to the contractor, his bid, so his problem? It is obviously potentially hazardous work, and probably the gamut of situations that trees can get into, would any logging contractor in your area be capable of doing the job? I also wonder to what degree the situations are evaluated and discussed, before the removal operation begins. Presumably highly skilled people doing their jobs within the range of their capabilities, but as we have seen at the treehouse, sometimes seeking advice, like in the case not so long ago where Willie was looking at a dead tree to possibly take out, getting some additional assessment to get the best approach, is probably a good idea. Are you privilege to the operations as they take place, asked to participate in questionable situations? I'm wondering how the people doing the work go about it, to get the results required.
Thanks.
FJR
Treehouser
Thanks for answering that Burnham, I was curious to why that was done also. It makes sense.
Burnham
Woods walker
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #65
Jay, this work is performed under contract, as you know. One of the pertinent factors a bidder must address in their proposal is the qualifications of the individuals who will be performing the work...in terms of experience level, training, and certifications. As you also probably recall, there is no private industry certification program for chain saw operators in the US...so that last factor is moot. Perhaps oddly, the traffic control flaggers on these contracts are required to have documented professional training as well as a state certification 
. Neither is the case for fallers.
So documented experience, as well as competent performance on previous contract work, carries the load of evidence when a Contracting Officer evaluates the quality of a particular bid.
You ask would any logging contractor be able to handle the work...there are plenty of custom cutters who are fully able, but like in any field, there are less skilled ones, too.
Once the contract is awarded, my role is to act as the Contracting Officer's technical expert on the ground, termed the Contracting Officer's Representative. As such, I cannot direct how the work is pursued. But I have full authority to halt work, in fact am required to do so, if I observe work practices that are unsafe to the point of having potential to injure or kill either the workers or the public.
On a job like hazard tree removals, I make it a point to closely moniter the skill level of the sawyers when the project commences. If I am satisfied with what I see and hear (for I engage closely with these guys to find out where/what/how much experience they have, no matter what the company boss has submitted in the bid), then I loosen up my oversight. If I have less confidence, then I monitor more closely. So really, ensuring that the people doing the cutting have the chops to handle it falls to the COR...which of course begs the question, "does the COR have the skill to tell?"
In reality, very few COR's have those skills at the level I do. On this Forest, CO's recognize that...so I tend to be assigned to handle most of the hazard tree removal contracts either as COR or as designated inspector on those I don't have time enough to perform all of the COR duties. On those contracts, I'll at least put in enough time to make a judgment about whether we have a rookie who's likely to have problems handling the job safely. It's not so hard to tell.
More informally, as in the case with Danny, I do give input on how he might handle a particular tree, but that is basically more on a personal basis, not part of contract administration. Some guys don't want any input, some like to chew on ideas and different ways to approach felling problems. Danny has been falling professionally for nearly 10 years, mostly here in western Oregon and Washington, and some time over in eastern Washington and northern Idaho. He's real good with a saw, and runs a 460 or 660 day after day. There are a few tricks to working with a 5 foot bar that he'd not had an opportunity to learn...but I had no worries about putting that saw in his hands for that fell.
Once in a while a contract cutter will decide to pass on a tree...not very often at all, but it has happened. They do have that option, providing I agree the tree has significant attendent hazards to the faller. In such rare cases, I usually fall that tree after the contract is completed, though we have blasted one or two over the years.
. Neither is the case for fallers.So documented experience, as well as competent performance on previous contract work, carries the load of evidence when a Contracting Officer evaluates the quality of a particular bid.
You ask would any logging contractor be able to handle the work...there are plenty of custom cutters who are fully able, but like in any field, there are less skilled ones, too.
Once the contract is awarded, my role is to act as the Contracting Officer's technical expert on the ground, termed the Contracting Officer's Representative. As such, I cannot direct how the work is pursued. But I have full authority to halt work, in fact am required to do so, if I observe work practices that are unsafe to the point of having potential to injure or kill either the workers or the public.
On a job like hazard tree removals, I make it a point to closely moniter the skill level of the sawyers when the project commences. If I am satisfied with what I see and hear (for I engage closely with these guys to find out where/what/how much experience they have, no matter what the company boss has submitted in the bid), then I loosen up my oversight. If I have less confidence, then I monitor more closely. So really, ensuring that the people doing the cutting have the chops to handle it falls to the COR...which of course begs the question, "does the COR have the skill to tell?"
In reality, very few COR's have those skills at the level I do. On this Forest, CO's recognize that...so I tend to be assigned to handle most of the hazard tree removal contracts either as COR or as designated inspector on those I don't have time enough to perform all of the COR duties. On those contracts, I'll at least put in enough time to make a judgment about whether we have a rookie who's likely to have problems handling the job safely. It's not so hard to tell
.More informally, as in the case with Danny, I do give input on how he might handle a particular tree, but that is basically more on a personal basis, not part of contract administration. Some guys don't want any input, some like to chew on ideas and different ways to approach felling problems. Danny has been falling professionally for nearly 10 years, mostly here in western Oregon and Washington, and some time over in eastern Washington and northern Idaho. He's real good with a saw, and runs a 460 or 660 day after day. There are a few tricks to working with a 5 foot bar that he'd not had an opportunity to learn...but I had no worries about putting that saw in his hands for that fell.
Once in a while a contract cutter will decide to pass on a tree...not very often at all, but it has happened. They do have that option, providing I agree the tree has significant attendent hazards to the faller. In such rare cases, I usually fall that tree after the contract is completed, though we have blasted one or two over the years.
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Jed
TreeHouser
Hey Burnham: I've got no falling experience. Can I do the next one?
G
Gord
Guest
No biggie Burnham just curious, have only ever seen the black/orange ones.
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
Great response, thanks. You seem to do a real thorough job at whatever the tasks call for, and at the same time go about it in a relaxed fashion, it is highly commendable. It sure isn't something that gets established in a short period, knowing your way around people and situations takes a lot of experience. Covering the ground with responsibility but not being a hard case, I don't think it is so common.
You have mentioned before about the periodic training requirements for people doing cutting on government lands, so that would only apply to government employees, and not those in the privates sector who are awarded contracts?
I have conveyed your information to a number of people here, lots of cutting operations going on in the woods via tax dollars, and lots of injuries I hear about as well. Nothing required beyond a very basic chainsaw certification for work done on prefectural or national lands, a two day course, and many of the people taking it have no experience at all with a saw, let alone falling trees, yet they will soon be doing such work....hard to believe. Everyone with experience on the ground level does well understand that there is much need for improvement and a firm program established, but the suits don't seem to be able to develop the concept in their brains, and work towards a suitable arrangement. I don't really know what the problem is. I'm going to be meeting with the son-in-law of a good customer of mine, when he makes it out my way. He works for the government in a pretty high position managing the country's forests, a younger guy with some smarts, I know they had him over in Washington state for a couple years doing research in some capacity. I'm curious to know to what degree he really knows what is going on? If anybody in those offices in Tokyo does, or if they care? My connection to it is pretty much only one of interest, though I have a standing call to work for one of the contractors whenever I want. I've done it a few times, but other things keep me occupied. Still, I keep my ear to the ground and a lot of the work being done is close. The inefficiencies or whatever you want to call it, are really blatant here, but like so many aspects of the culture that get hemmed into an old time routine, it takes a foreigner to try and point out the problems with it, and rarely does anyone pay attention to the outsider. In that regard, your information is really helpful to give comparison. I'm hoping that the fellow I meet will have more an open mind. Thanks again.
You have mentioned before about the periodic training requirements for people doing cutting on government lands, so that would only apply to government employees, and not those in the privates sector who are awarded contracts?
I have conveyed your information to a number of people here, lots of cutting operations going on in the woods via tax dollars, and lots of injuries I hear about as well. Nothing required beyond a very basic chainsaw certification for work done on prefectural or national lands, a two day course, and many of the people taking it have no experience at all with a saw, let alone falling trees, yet they will soon be doing such work....hard to believe. Everyone with experience on the ground level does well understand that there is much need for improvement and a firm program established, but the suits don't seem to be able to develop the concept in their brains, and work towards a suitable arrangement. I don't really know what the problem is. I'm going to be meeting with the son-in-law of a good customer of mine, when he makes it out my way. He works for the government in a pretty high position managing the country's forests, a younger guy with some smarts, I know they had him over in Washington state for a couple years doing research in some capacity. I'm curious to know to what degree he really knows what is going on? If anybody in those offices in Tokyo does, or if they care? My connection to it is pretty much only one of interest, though I have a standing call to work for one of the contractors whenever I want. I've done it a few times, but other things keep me occupied. Still, I keep my ear to the ground and a lot of the work being done is close. The inefficiencies or whatever you want to call it, are really blatant here, but like so many aspects of the culture that get hemmed into an old time routine, it takes a foreigner to try and point out the problems with it, and rarely does anyone pay attention to the outsider. In that regard, your information is really helpful to give comparison. I'm hoping that the fellow I meet will have more an open mind. Thanks again.
Burnham
Woods walker
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #69
Thanks, Jay. I try .
I've been doing contract admin for the USFS for nearly 30 years, working up through the ranks to top level COR, which I've been rated at for nearly 20 years. I'm way better at it than when I was younger, experience is a huge factor in finding the space between the contract specs and the reality of working in the real world to meet the FS objectives without giving away the farm, while not making it unneccesarily difficult for the contractor to make a reasonable profit.
As to your question about chainsaw certification to cut on gov't lands...
I've spoken highly of the USFS S-212 chainsaw training and certification program, and others who are familiar with this training (wiley p, old monkey, bodean, etc.) have had positive things to say about it, too. You may recall that I instruct and certify in this program.
This requirement applies only to FS employees (and volunteers) when working.
If you are interested in the gory details, I can give a more detailed overview of the program, either in open forum or pm.
When you get the Japanese government convinced they need to set up a regulatory system and a training and certification program, let them know that I'll be retiring sooner rather than later, and for a properly obscene renumeration, will come over and tell them how to do it
.
Oh, I'd need an interpreter familiar with the terms associated with the subject...of course properly rewarded, too...interested?
. I've been doing contract admin for the USFS for nearly 30 years, working up through the ranks to top level COR, which I've been rated at for nearly 20 years. I'm way better at it than when I was younger, experience is a huge factor in finding the space between the contract specs and the reality of working in the real world to meet the FS objectives without giving away the farm, while not making it unneccesarily difficult for the contractor to make a reasonable profit.
As to your question about chainsaw certification to cut on gov't lands...
I've spoken highly of the USFS S-212 chainsaw training and certification program, and others who are familiar with this training (wiley p, old monkey, bodean, etc.) have had positive things to say about it, too. You may recall that I instruct and certify in this program.
This requirement applies only to FS employees (and volunteers) when working.
If you are interested in the gory details, I can give a more detailed overview of the program, either in open forum or pm.
When you get the Japanese government convinced they need to set up a regulatory system and a training and certification program, let them know that I'll be retiring sooner rather than later, and for a properly obscene renumeration, will come over and tell them how to do it
.Oh, I'd need an interpreter familiar with the terms associated with the subject...of course properly rewarded, too...interested?
Peter
Treehouser
The details of the UK system can be found online if you are interested Jay, its far from perfect but it is a system.
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
Interesting idea, Burnham, I wouldn't at all mind being your chauffeur, just give a shout when I start to drive on the wrong side of the road, it still happens sometimes. 
Seriously, it would be very cool if something like that could be arranged, i will sure mention you when getting together with the government guy. It could really get things moving in a much more positive direction.
Thanks Peter, I found a site for the Arboriculture and Forestry Advisory Group (AFAG). Is that what you are referring to?
Seriously, it would be very cool if something like that could be arranged, i will sure mention you when getting together with the government guy. It could really get things moving in a much more positive direction.
Thanks Peter, I found a site for the Arboriculture and Forestry Advisory Group (AFAG). Is that what you are referring to?
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
A fag?
Ha!
Ha!
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
Somehow I don't think I would want to fall one you would pass on Burnam 
sotc
Dormant hero!!
No but it would be fun to blast it!
