Who Underbid Me? .... and by How Much? .... Do I have the Job?

[rfwoody]

If you get underbid for a job does anyone check back with the homeowner, etc. on WHO got the job and for HOW MUCH was their bid?

AND/OR .... Does anyone check back with a potential customer (e.g. a few days) after giving a bid to see if they have gone with anybody yet and if not take the opportunity to (re)negotiate for the job? (assuming you want to do the job for less)?

Are these practices considered professional, etc.?

Thanks!

 

[MasterBlaster]

What he said!!!

 

[rfwoody]

Thanks Levi and Butch!

This is my first bid on a tree removal job for pay and I really want it for the experience......But I don't want to make lots of trips with my pickup truck bed hauling out all the wood. (might go and look at trailers today).

THEREFORE....I'm thinking of greatly reducing the bid of the "removal" (felling) part and maybe he can find somebody to haul off the wood cheaper than I want to do it for. (e.g. per Sean)

My insurance forbids me from "sub-contracting" others ... but he said I can give the customer a list of names/numbers.

 

[SeanKroll]

Hauling log chunks/ wood, inefficiently, is a money loser.

 

[Altissimus]

I was low bid for years as I learned the trade and got good at it.

 

[SeanKroll]

People don't always go for the low bid.

The more bids you do, the better you'll get.

I still have people shopping price, but the other day, a new customer was sufficiently impressed about being able to save his birch with a plan, and discussion about a handful of other pruning, he started talking about "when you're here, you need to do this as well". Ended up getting dark, told him I'll come another day to write a proposal, and have him on the schedule before storms, after leaves fall.

Pruning is less likely to go for the low bid.

Hopefully, his neighbors will get wind before my follow up and will need something. Also, hopefully they have a Jacuzzi, tennis court, and view, too.

Well-healed will be more likely to go with value, over price. Most all that work will be hand saw and hand primers, with little chainsaw work or material processed/ hauled.

Snip, snip, instead of Grunt, Grunt.

 

[rfwoody]

Thanks Sean and Altissiumus.

Good perspective, Sean.

....But I really want that removal job just to get some momentum going.

 

[pantheraba]

Clean-up can be a killer. Bids where you drop the tree, make a mess, get paid and leave are wonderful. "Home-owner cleanup".

Sometimes when they realize how much work REALLY goes into cleanup they call you back. We usually end up charging the same or more as the "drop the tree" price.

A tree that costs $400 to drop can take $800 to cleanup, e.g.

In the tree work takes the most skill and cunning...the groundwork/cleanup is often just hard grunt work. (the groundie running ropes to help the climber look good at the climbing/rigging stuff is an entirely different matter. I love having my son, Alex, on the ground running ropes or helping decide how to make (or NOT make) the next cut. A trained and careful eye on the ground is priceless).

Don't sell yourself as primarily a cleanup guy...be the problem solver that gets the tree issue solved...that is the primary concern.

 

[SeanKroll]

People don't always go for the low bid.

The more bids you do, the better you'll get.

I still have people shopping price, but the other day, a new customer was sufficiently impressed about being able to save his birch with a plan, and discussion about a handful of other pruning, he started talking about "when you're here, you need to do this as well". Ended up getting dark, told him I'll come another day to write a proposal, and have him on the schedule before storms, after leaves fall.

Pruning is less likely to go for the low bid.

Hopefully, his neighbors will get wind before my follow up and will need something. Also, hopefully they have a Jacuzzi, tennis court, and view, too.

Well-heeled people will be more likely to go with value, over price. Most all that pruning work will be hand saw and hand pruners, with little chainsaw work or material processed/ hauled.

Snip, snip, instead of Grunt, Grunt.

A demolition job is a lot different than a custom remodeling job.





To tag on to Gary, the risk is in the fell/ dismantle.

 

[Mick!]

You know you posted that 2hrs ago Sean?

(Although you spelt heeled correctly second time)

 

[ClimbMIT]

If a customer asks me how much just to drop and walk away I always consider the risks involved when pricing. I might be 99% sure I am going to lay it down exactly where I want it. There is that 1% chance of a mistake! Ok maybe I am more like 80% sure it will land where I desire! Lol
Personally I love when a customer wants me to just cut and leave. It might take me and one groundie an hour to drop a tree and walk away with $500! Also if you quoted appropriately on the clean up they are likely to go with that once they see the mess.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[SeanKroll]

You know you posted that 2hrs ago Sean?

(Although you spelt heeled correctly second time)

Supposed to have been an edit. Small screen, early in the morning.

 

[treetx]

I agree with Sean that deeper pockets may go more for value but will add that they only go for value if you make a value proposition.

If you just shoot them a quote and run, you are a commodity. That is good if that is your model, but the value add has wider margins every time.

Following up on quotes is an awesome way to make a value proposition. Ask who they are going with and why, etc. I rarely (if ever) did it in tree work but do it daily in capital equipment sales. Without a value proposition, they are left to turn everyone/product into a commodity.

In capital equipment sales, when I get an email for a quote request, I will not quote them unless they answer their phone (or I already know them). This is because once you give them all the info they need to jump to their own conclusions, they have no need to pick up the phone or let you visit to make a value proposition.

Next lesson...... How to Close ................... lol

 

[Altissimus]

Yes , polite follow ups are fair if you cared that much about the job. It does give you a chance w out mentioning actual numbers to stand behind your bid. Go over services rendered point by point ... many times it's Apples to Oranges.

 

[Altissimus]

Also small timers will quite often lose removals to big outfits If they have access. Will stomp my bid by thirty percent.

 

[rfwoody]

Thanks All for viewing and comments!

These are jobs for a friend's rental houses, so I think he just wants the lowest bid and get rid of debris any way he can.

I'm thinking about just telling him I really want these jobs and how can we meet in the middle so I can get them.

Clean-up can be a killer. Bids where you drop the tree, make a mess, get paid and leave are wonderful. "Home-owner cleanup".

Sometimes when they realize how much work REALLY goes into cleanup they call you back. We usually end up charging the same or more as the "drop the tree" price.

A tree that costs $400 to drop can take $800 to cleanup, e.g.

In the tree work takes the most skill and cunning...the groundwork/cleanup is often just hard grunt work. (the groundie running ropes to help the climber look good at the climbing/rigging stuff is an entirely different matter. I love having my son, Alex, on the ground running ropes or helping decide how to make (or NOT make) the next cut. A trained and careful eye on the ground is priceless).

Don't sell yourself as primarily a cleanup guy...be the problem solver that gets the tree issue solved...that is the primary concern.

Sounds like good advice pantheraba.

Thanks for that take on the $400 drop and $800 cleanup .... my gut, just ballparking figuring hours/risk, etc. came up with similar conclusion.

Since I don't have a trailer yet and all cleanup is my 8' pickup bed, I am pretty much charging with that in mind and all the trips.

........

Snip, snip, instead of Grunt, Grunt.

A demolition job is a lot different than a custom remodeling job.

To tag on to Gary, the risk is in the fell/ dismantle.

Thanks again, Sean.

Continuing to think about tree pruning as a good alternative.

Yeah, thanks for the emphasis...I am trying to keep the risk factor in my mind and incorporate that in my thinking on what to charge.

If a customer asks me how much just to drop and walk away I always consider the risks involved when pricing. I might be 99% sure I am going to lay it down exactly where I want it. There is that 1% chance of a mistake! Ok maybe I am more like 80% sure it will land where I desire! Lol
Personally I love when a customer wants me to just cut and leave. It might take me and one groundie an hour to drop a tree and walk away with $500! Also if you quoted appropriately on the clean up they are likely to go with that once they see the mess.


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Thanks ClimbMIT for another emphasis about the risks and the value of taking the risks and to charge accordingly.

Since these are my friend's rental's I think he is just going to try to find somebody to clean up as cheaply as possible.

I agree with Sean that deeper pockets may go more for value but will add that they only go for value if you make a value proposition.

If you just shoot them a quote and run, you are a commodity. That is good if that is your model, but the value add has wider margins every time.

Following up on quotes is an awesome way to make a value proposition. Ask who they are going with and why, etc. I rarely (if ever) did it in tree work but do it daily in capital equipment sales. Without a value proposition, they are left to turn everyone/product into a commodity.

In capital equipment sales, when I get an email for a quote request, I will not quote them unless they answer their phone (or I already know them). This is because once you give them all the info they need to jump to their own conclusions, they have no need to pick up the phone or let you visit to make a value proposition.

Next lesson...... How to Close ................... lol

treetx, that sounds like some really good advice.

If you have time, would you please explain how to fit the value concept into tree work? ... would it be that I can give better value (or do a better job) or give a better value-to-price ratio than anyone else they might consider? ... i.e. and use that to sell them?

Yes , polite follow ups are fair if you cared that much about the job. It does give you a chance w out mentioning actual numbers to stand behind your bid. Go over services rendered point by point ... many times it's Apples to Oranges.

Also small timers will quite often lose removals to big outfits If they have access. Will stomp my bid by thirty percent.

Thanks Altissimus. Do the small timers (like me) lose the removals to big outfits because the big outfits have the equipment to do the job quickly and easily compared to the small timer who has to do most everything the hard/manual way?

 

[Bermy]

If you aren't allowed to sub contract, then start to get a list together of people/businesses who will do cleanup for you. Then you can give the list to your client.
Or maybe a bit more within the confines of your insurance, you call them in but all the billing/payment is done between them and your client?

I just put in a written estimate for a day's work, seen the job, met the neighbours (we need access) prune back the neighbour's tree from overhanging my client's roof, remove a small ornamental plum, cut back some shrubs on the boundary and prune a top grafted weeping crab apple. Chip debris and leave anything of any size for firewood.
I made the mistake of giving an 'off the cuff' estimate on site and immediately I knew it was too high, but I did say it covered contingencies and if we finished under we'd reflect that in the final invoice. ( Usually I say I will email them an estimate, gives me time to crunch the numbers, didn't this time)
The next day the client called and told me she was going to get some more quotes...nice of her to actually call and tell me, I appreciate that. So I said I'd email her a estimate, put mine in writing.
I think it's the best way really, because then you can specify what you will be doing and how. You really have no idea what another outfit will do, or even if it is (as I've said before) the bloke down the road with a pickup, a ladder and a chainsaw. It gives you the opportunity to perhaps be compared favourably.
She did say she's let me know...often once a job has gone out to more people you never do hear back.

So it begs the question, when going to see a job, do you ask up front if they will be getting other quotes? I think it's a fair question, sometimes I don't think clients realize the tenterhooks we can be on waiting to hear if we got the job! Then if they say yes, perhaps ask them then to let you know the outcome once they decide. I have asked once or twice if I was in the ballpark with other quotes and was told yes...so that makes me feel a bit better that at least I'd got the pricing right even if I didn't get the job.

 

[rfwoody]

If you aren't allowed to sub contract, then start to get a list together of people/businesses who will do cleanup for you. Then you can give the list to your client.
Or maybe a bit more within the confines of your insurance, you call them in but all the billing/payment is done between them and your client?

I just put in a written estimate for a day's work, seen the job, met the neighbours (we need access) prune back the neighbour's tree from overhanging my client's roof, remove a small ornamental plum, cut back some shrubs on the boundary and prune a top grafted weeping crab apple. Chip debris and leave anything of any size for firewood.
I made the mistake of giving an 'off the cuff' estimate on site and immediately I knew it was too high, but I did say it covered contingencies and if we finished under we'd reflect that in the final invoice. ( Usually I say I will email them an estimate, gives me time to crunch the numbers, didn't this time)
The next day the client called and told me she was going to get some more quotes...nice of her to actually call and tell me, I appreciate that. So I said I'd email her a estimate, put mine in writing.
I think it's the best way really, because then you can specify what you will be doing and how. You really have no idea what another outfit will do, or even if it is (as I've said before) the bloke down the road with a pickup, a ladder and a chainsaw. It gives you the opportunity to perhaps be compared favourably.
She did say she's let me know...often once a job has gone out to more people you never do hear back.

So it begs the question, when going to see a job, do you ask up front if they will be getting other quotes? I think it's a fair question, sometimes I don't think clients realize the tenterhooks we can be on waiting to hear if we got the job! Then if they say yes, perhaps ask them then to let you know the outcome once they decide. I have asked once or twice if I was in the ballpark with other quotes and was told yes...so that makes me feel a bit better that at least I'd got the pricing right even if I didn't get the job.

Great story and insights and advice, Bermy. Thanks!

I've seen some guys on Craigslist for debris/trash cleanup.... but I feel I should have some idea of what kind of people they are, etc. before I would give somebody's name out.

 

[SeanKroll]

Try finding a legit lawn/ landscape service looking for more work.

You can't base the price on your lack of equipment. If your not set up for it, you might be better sticking to what you have equipment for.

Buy a trailer for $400 if you can't afford more. You will make the money back fast enough.


Do you have a budget for equipment?

Used gear is often way cheaper. I got my first pole spurs and pads for $25 plus shipping, $41 total. 12 years ago. Climbed a thin bark tree in them recently. I upgraded the pads with other used pads. I found fancy Ti climbers and pads for $200, almost new from a guy getting out of spur work.

 

[Bermy]

Great story and insights and advice, Bermy. Thanks!

I've seen some guys on Craigslist for debris/trash cleanup.... but I feel I should have some idea of what kind of people they are, etc. before I would give somebody's name out.

I completely agree Robert, you have to know the people you are recommending!! Might be time to start to do some research...

 

[Joezilla11]

So just thinking out loud.... u bid your first job and haven’t heard back yet so your idea is to go spend money on trailer and then to call them back and tell them you will do it for less? That just doesn’t sound right to me. I think your intentions are good but these are the facts and just doesn’t sound right to me. I know u want the job but if u are in it for the long haul there will be more work. What’s happens if u lower the price, buy a trailer, and cut a rigging line, or your chainsaw craps out? I’d work on adjusting your skill level before you go adjusting your price

 

[MasterBlaster]

call them back and tell them you will do it for less?

Who said that???

 

[Grendel]

Clean-up can be a killer. Bids where you drop the tree, make a mess, get paid and leave are wonderful. "Home-owner cleanup".

Sometimes when they realize how much work REALLY goes into cleanup they call you back. We usually end up charging the same or more as the "drop the tree" price.

A tree that costs $400 to drop can take $800 to cleanup, e.g.

In the tree work takes the most skill and cunning...the groundwork/cleanup is often just hard grunt work. (the groundie running ropes to help the climber look good at the climbing/rigging stuff is an entirely different matter. I love having my son, Alex, on the ground running ropes or helping decide how to make (or NOT make) the next cut. A trained and careful eye on the ground is priceless).

Don't sell yourself as primarily a cleanup guy...be the problem solver that gets the tree issue solved...that is the primary concern.

Great post Gary!

 

[CurSedVoyce]

For example, took down 6 smallish to medium sized pine, chipped, bucked logs, material stayed on site.... 1600.00
Lady asked wood to be removed 2 years later, solo truck, trailer, dingo, 800.00 transport to my free dump site for burning. SO add another c note or two labor to burn. Only reason it was not more money, is that she opted to keep some of the smaller logs for a dog training obstacle course.

If you get under bid, stop dancing around the customer and walk away. How many others liked your bid on different jobs and did you make enough money... Really pay attention and ask yourself, divide by hours and make sure you are not making store clerk wages. Take 40% off the gross to fix and buy shat before you ask yourself if YOU made enough.

 

[rfwoody]

Try finding a legit lawn/ landscape service looking for more work.

You can't base the price on your lack of equipment. If your not set up for it, you might be better sticking to what you have equipment for.

Buy a trailer for $400 if you can't afford more. You will make the money back fast enough.


Do you have a budget for equipment?

Used gear is often way cheaper. I got my first pole spurs and pads for $25 plus shipping, $41 total. 12 years ago. Climbed a thin bark tree in them recently. I upgraded the pads with other used pads. I found fancy Ti climbers and pads for $200, almost new from a guy getting out of spur work.

A trailer is in my sights to buy soon... in fact I'm trying to decide on the length.
For my own comfort level at this point I feel better with a small "footprint" so I'm thinking about a 12' double axle utility trailer with a fold down ramp in the back -- also the shorter trailer will fit easier into tighter spots.

Yes... buying used is definitely the smart way to go... but I'm not wired that way be default too much. I like to plan out and research exactly what I want and then go find it and buy it as easily as possible. I'm just not much of a wheeler-dealer when it comes to tools and equipment. I want to know it's right and I can depend on it and not worry about having to be working on it anytime soon -- probably a character defect of laziness -- but as I get older I just don't seem to have the mental "cycles" as we used to say in the computer world -- I'd rather keep my focus on getting and doing the jobs -- I know spurs wouldn't be in this kind of category, it would be easier to "be right" --- I guess I need to try to loosen up with buying used stuff and broaden my horizons for sources of used stuff. (the Craigslist for around here always seems to be pretty slim for anything I'm looking for).
But THANKS for the wise advice!

My budget for equipment at this point is whatever I need to get within reason suitable for a 1 (me) or 2 (part-time) man crew for a small business and that I can convince my wife I need
haha, my business isn't that sophisticated. I keep up with all my stuff for my taxes but that's about it at this point.

I completely agree Robert, you have to know the people you are recommending!! Might be time to start to do some research...

So just thinking out loud.... u bid your first job and haven’t heard back yet so your idea is to go spend money on trailer and then to call them back and tell them you will do it for less? That just doesn’t sound right to me. I think your intentions are good but these are the facts and just doesn’t sound right to me. I know u want the job but if u are in it for the long haul there will be more work. What’s happens if u lower the price, buy a trailer, and cut a rigging line, or your chainsaw craps out? I’d work on adjusting your skill level before you go adjusting your price

Thanks a lot for the feedback and perspective, Joezilla11!
Yeah, you make a good point that in the long haul there will be more work.... but this job seems ideal and to me it is important to me to get some confidence and momentum and experience on a "real" tree removal job *for pay*

Who said that???

haha, I might have implied it reading between the lines!

Great post Gary!

Yes, sir. I need to go back and re-read it again.

For example, took down 6 smallish to medium sized pine, chipped, bucked logs, material stayed on site.... 1600.00
Lady asked wood to be removed 2 years later, solo truck, trailer, dingo, 800.00 transport to my free dump site for burning. SO add another c note or two labor to burn. Only reason it was not more money, is that she opted to keep some of the smaller logs for a dog training obstacle course.

If you get under bid, stop dancing around the customer and walk away. How many others liked your bid on different jobs and did you make enough money... Really pay attention and ask yourself, divide by hours and make sure you are not making store clerk wages. Take 40% off the gross to fix and buy shat before you ask yourself if YOU made enough.

Thanks for the real life example, CurSedVoyce!
Yeah, for me at this point it is sort of a middle ground gray area between bidding *real* professional prices and trying to get the job at something "reasonable" so I can start getting the experience and hopefully increase in confidence in the work -- which will help me bid/sell (myself) on the next job.
Did you take down those pines from the ground or did you have to dismantle from the top at all? Thanks!