Whipping

[NHlocal]

Can I get someone to clarify the whole lock stitch/whipping thing for me. I am clear on how to do a lock stitch with whipping and the difference between the two. Where I am not so clear is on a tight eye splice where it should be placed. I have read 3 inches down from the eye and somewhere else it says as close to the eye as possible. My last question is sewing the crossover before the bury. Is this just personal preference, does it give the splice more stability? I have read through the entire splicing forums and watched all the videos I am just a bit overwhelmed with knowledge right now and want to make sure my splices are done right before climbing on them.

I'd like to know that also.....

 

[Burnham]

Again, no expert here...but it's my understanding that the splice holds it's shape and strength best when under load, and the lockstitch and whipping stabilize the splice when it is under slack conditions. Without the lockstitch, the splice can pull apart a little at a time in cycles of load/unload.

As to where it should be located...I guess anywhere between just below the eye and three inches down .

I like close to the eye better.

 

[NHlocal]

Again, no expert here...but it's my understanding that the splice holds it's shape and strength best when under load, and the lockstitch and whipping stabilize the splice when it is under slack conditions. Without the lockstitch, the splice can pull apart a little at a time in cycles of load/unload.
As to where it should be located...I guess anywhere between just below the eye and three inches down .

I like close to the eye better.

Makes sense to me.....the last thing I want is my splice to pull apart!!!

 

[Adam_P]

What Burnham said!

In addition to that I asked about lock stitching vs a whipping and lock on TB once. Someone (I think Rich H?) said that whipping and stitching that you see on most ropes allows you to see if there's been a shift in core. If the core were to move for some reason it would be evident in the locking part of the stitching. It was nice to get some more reasoning behind something that all of us just do because we see others do it.

 

[Burnham]

 

[NHlocal]

What Burnham said!

In addition to that I asked about lock stitching vs a whipping and lock on TB once. Someone (I think Rich H?) said that whipping and stitching that you see on most ropes allows you to see if there's been a shift in core. If the core were to move for some reason it would be evident in the locking part of the stitching. It was nice to get some more reasoning behind something that all of us just do because we see others do it.

There's a whole world of difference between knowing how something is done and understanding why it's done. For such a "small" piece of information that you just gave, to me that's HUGE!!!
'Cause now I understand why it's done. I'm that way with everything, I want to understand why. When I understand why then I can REALLY learn to do it well.

 

[woodworkingboy]

This is a perfect opportunity for an Al Smith quote on understanding women.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Sometimes a little sting feels good at the right moment.. Oh wait....
WHIPPING ROPE AND SPLICES....... DOH

I will try and better better attention ......

 

[Burnham]

Okay, and here's another thought for you, one which formed a central tenent to the way I viewed my role as an instructor, what my responsibility to my students required me to accomplish in a climbing or chainsaw ops class...if you understand the WHY of the way you learn to do something, then you have the tools to apply that insight into dealing with challenges that you were not specifically taught WHAT to do to deal with. Tree work is too complex, has too many variables, for any teacher to show any student how they should handle all situations. Only by understanding why you did x,y,and z in some related situation, can you ably decide how to handle this new one.

You're gonna go far in this trade with your attitude, Randy.

 

[Burnham]

Stephen, we're gonna have to have Kat give you a "correction".

Wait...that's what you're wanting anyway, wrong way to change behavior.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

 

[NHlocal]

Okay, and here's another thought for you, one which formed a central tenent to the way I viewed my role as an instructor, what my responsibility to my students required me to accomplish in a climbing or chainsaw ops class...if you understand the WHY of the way you learn to do something, then you have the tools to apply that insight into dealing with challenges that you were not specifically taught WHAT to do to deal with. Tree work is too complex, has too many variables, for any teacher to show any student how they should handle all situations. Only by understanding why you did x,y,and z in some related situation, can you ably decide how to handle this new one.

You're gonna go far in this trade with your attitude, Randy.

You know it's really interesting that you say that, and how you say that. When I have the opportunity at work that's exactly the way I try to pass on what I know to my newer, less experienced co workers.
I have been doing CNC precision finish grinding for over 27 years. I'm sure you'll understand when I say grinding is exactly the same as tree work. It's too complex and has too many variables to teach someone how to know what to do in every situation. But, if you understand the basic principles you can apply those to any situation and be able to figure out how to get it done.
Thanks for the post Burnham, that's a BIG encouragement to me.....

 

[woodworkingboy]

You guys make it sound simple, all you have to know is how to do. Learn with your body is I think more appropriate for the skills under discussion. The reason that many fail to accomplish the goal, the time that needs to be put in beyond mental reference. Not wanting to negate the importance of the desire to know to help learn, however.

 

[Burnham]

Certainly experience only increases the chances of success at applying knowlege gained to problems at hand, I couldn't agree more Jay. I don't mean to make it sound simple, but it I do maintain it's a simple concept...if you understand the why, you are more likely to overcome difficult situations by application of technique to previously unencountered problems.

Put it a different way...if I only teach a newbie sawyer to "cut here, then here, then here...no bind that way" without explaining why the bind didn't then occur, I have given them no truly useful tools.

 

[woodworkingboy]

Of course i understand your thinking on it, without you even saying. It's an interesting point of departure, Burnham. In the west, there is a great emphasis on the initial mental approach to learning, it is in the nature of people there to want to know why. Education encourages that. In Japan, with all the idiosyncratic aspects of this Asian culture, is also the fact that traditional craftsmen are exceptionally highly skilled, among the best in the world including the living treasures, as they are referred to. Woodworking...swordsmiths...textiles...ceramics, it runs the gamut. The approach here is not one of why, however, much more simply a mimicry of what the master does, why and verbal discussion is actually rather frowned upon, too much emphasis on individual conceptualization, considered wasting time. Watch and "steal", is the old approach, they do use the word, "steal". Anyone that can learn that way has to want it enough. The why part can come later via your own analysis, or discussion amongst competent people. As an apprentice here within a traditional system, it was very difficult for me to minimize myself as required. It was very hard to understand. I'll be the first to admit that I was hardly prepared for such an approach, the cause of immense struggle. Both systems work, but very different. Which gives the most staying power, i have thoughts about. Staying power breeds excellence.

 

[NHlocal]

You guys make it sound simple, all you have to know is how to do. Learn with your body is I think more appropriate for the skills under discussion. The reason that many fail to accomplish the goal, the time that needs to be put in beyond mental reference. Not wanting to negate the importance of the desire to know to help learn, however.

It ain't simple, and it goes way beyond just knowing/understanding. Mr. Beranek worded it just about perfect in his working climber video. He said something along the line of, "it's the lack of practical experience that gets people/tree workers in trouble and hurt or killed", or something like that.
I agree 100%, you do have to learn with your body, it's a physical skill. I was talking only to the thinking part of tree work.
Please don't take offense thinking I meant there's no skill involved. I may be a newbie but I know better than that.....please forgive me if I'm not explaining myself/making myself clear. I'm not always so good at putting into words what's on my mind, it makes sense to me but can look like jibberish to everyone else.

 

[woodworkingboy]

Randy, I certainly take no offense. I didn't mean to downsize in practicality what you were saying, not my intention at all. I hope my later post somewhat explained my points of reference. This kind of thing goes around and around in my mind, as a craftsman. I find the whole subject of learning manual skills quite fascinating, especially having worked within different cultures and having had my own apprentices. Much like myself when young, when i tried to teach someone in the states the way i was taught, it blew him out. He was throwing up at lunchtime. Had to modify it.

Sorry to throw a monkey wrench into your discussion works.

 

[NHlocal]

Randy, I certainly take no offense. I didn't mean to downsize in practicality what you were saying, not my intention at all. I hope my later post somewhat explained my points of reference. This kind of thing goes around and around in my mind, as a craftsman. I find the whole subject of learning manual skills quite fascinating, especially having worked within different cultures and having had my own apprentices. Much like myself when young, when i tried to teach someone in the states the way i was taught, it blew him out. He was throwing up at lunchtime. Had to modify it.

Sorry to throw a monkey wrench into your discussion works.

I'm really glad to hear you weren't offended. I've been known to try to explain what was on my mind and have it come so completely different that I had to back all the way up and start from "scratch".
I'm grateful for your input and point of view. I've had the privilege of being sent to Japan five times(Thailand once also)by my company to learn new machines/processes, for "new machine run/testing", and to help them with their machines/processes. For the small amount of time I was able to "experience" their culture it was obvious right away they had a different "way/view of approaching" work.

Whenever anyone shares their point of view it gives greater insight. If I'm teachable(and not critical)I'll learn from it and become better at what I do.
Thanks for jumping in and sharing your experience and insight. I'm hungry to learn, and always look forward to others sharing what they know.

 

[jmckee]

Again, no expert here...but it's my understanding that the splice holds it's shape and strength best when under load, and the lockstitch and whipping stabilize the splice when it is under slack conditions. Without the lockstitch, the splice can pull apart a little at a time in cycles of load/unload.

As to where it should be located...I guess anywhere between just below the eye and three inches down .

I like close to the eye better.

Thanks for the clarification! Everything everyone has said has been very helpful. I am now understanding how this whole splicing thing becomes so addictive. I look at rope in a whole new way . Nick doesn't help much with his new splicing pictures he puts up every other day.

I would still like to know if the crossover stitching adds any strength to the splice or just helps with the bury. I really can't see how it would add anything to the overall strength of the eye but I am a "super newbie" at this splicing thing.

 

[Adam_P]

It doesn't add strength. It can help keep the crossover from working apart but isn't necessary.

I personally don't do it. I just keep an eye on things and make sure everything is taut for the final bury.

 

[NHlocal]

.....................

 

[NHlocal]

OK, be patient with me, I tried following the picture album Nick has on the whip/lock stitching tonight on
the ring/ring FS I just made. I'm just not getting it, I'm not understanding it and it's not coming out for me.
I'm very frustrated and a little discouraged..... is there a video somewhere. I tried to watch the video Yale has,
but it doesn't follow the with pics that Nick has.....
If I could watch a video I'm sure I would understand the process. I'd really like to learn the whip/lock using double
thread, the Yale video uses single, that's really throwing me off.....
I'd like to get this finished so I can use it.
Thanks in advanced!

 

[NHlocal]

OK, be patient with me, I tried following the picture album Nick has on the whip/lock stitching tonight on
the ring/ring FS I just made. I'm just not getting it, I'm not understanding it and it's not coming out for me.
I'm very frustrated and a little discouraged..... is there a video somewhere. I tried to watch the video Yale has, but it doesn't follow the with pics that Nick has.....
If I could watch a video I'm sure I would understand the process. I'd really like to learn the whip/lock using double thread, the Yale video uses single, that's really throwing me off.....
I'd like to get this finished so I can use it.
Thanks in advanced!

 

[NickfromWI]

I can make a vid NEXT weekend if you mofos remind me. Text me starting Thursday NEXT week


love
nick

 

[NHlocal]

Nick,
that would be great! I know for me a video "fills in the gaps" between the pictures so I can understand what's being done. Of course, if there were someone sitting right in front of me showing me how to do it, that would be even better!

Wait.....what?.....text?.....what's that? Sorry, someone else will need to help out with that, I'm extremely "tech challenged"(no cell phone ).

I'll put up some "reminder posts".....