Whats expected of the climber working for you?

[SeanKroll]

A good amount of climbers are big egos with substance abuse problems. A lot are professionals.


Have you asked for a raise?
Have you told him you need more from him or another company?
Have you told him you want to be loyal, but loyalty starts with yourself, them him third, after your dependents (maybe dependents first, you second, him third)?
Is he open to ideas of making the company run smoother?

What are the hiccups? Underbidding? undertraining? undependable employees? Too little work?

 

[Gripfast]

Ah yes the ego, the 1000 headed dragon that any true warrior acknowledges the never ending battle with. I come from a world and industry of egos and substance abuse problems as well, really isnt that most industry's at this point?

But me personally for sure have a bit of an ego I do actively try and keep it in check, I am proud of what I know, who I am, and How I got here. But also I am proud to continue learning and strive to achieve a safe and efficient working environment. I taught him alot about climbing (my climbing experiance comes from 10 years of trad climbing in 6 different countries) He has taught me alot about cuts and felling. But he has been my only mentor besides books and youtube in this industry. Still alot to learn/solidify

As far as your questions go sean, No I have not asked for a raise, I have aksed for a % of my successfull quotes said he could pick the % and if he asked me I would say 10%.
Yes I have told him I need more and want to be loyal
Yes he is definitly open to making things better and will try no doubt

The hiccups Can be delt with and if we actively work together we will be one hell of a powerhouse no doubt and have access to some damn good reliable help. I guess the thing would be we see solving the problems a slightly different way. I had major anxiety's this year cause I had a very unreliable chipper. He wants to throw money at it and hope it gets us through the next season, I got 30G's and think that a 2nd newer chipper would alleviate a lot of the issues. Not that my 30,000 chipper wont have issues as I am sure it will, but having a backup or the ability to run 2 crews seems like the next step to me and alleviates a lot of the anxiety s I felt leading for him this year.

Lucky for me I dont need 40 hours a week year around to support my life style. Im a DINK (double income no kids) My work has always been seasonal, I make a living wage but my wife is the bread winner by about tripple. No planned kids in the near future....maybe adoption in 5 years???? we will cross that bridge when we get there. First I want to get real good at Trees and make some money.

 

[SkwerI]

Sounds about like my current employee, or where I see him in another year. He's only been with me a year, before that I had no employees and mostly subcontracted as a hired gun. I've tried to help him grow as a person and as a tree man, making sure he earns a decent living and encouraging him to grow in his skills and responsibilities.

But I also hate running crap equipment and I spend a fortune maintaining and upgrading our equipment. I'm constantly looking for ways we can be better and spending the time/money to make sure our setup is as efficient as possible. I used to climb but haven't in over 10 years. Two bucket trucks now which I swap off depending on the type of work we are doing that day. I have a big 60' and a smaller 42', both with material handlers because picking up heavy limbs or logs sucks. My chipper is an old Morbark I picked up cheap but I've addressed most of the major issues and it chips awesome now. Awesome performance for a 3500 lb chipper. Chip truck is a 20 year old Ford but again it works well and does everything we need. I put over $10K in repairs in it this year.

 

[Stumpshot]

Ok ok, I have to come clean. I am not the owner of the business but I am the Climber.

I was onto you -- the name was a bit of a giveway, since to me Gripfast = climber.

 

[Nutball]

I noticed that to, then it all made sense.

 

[SeanKroll]

How does gripfast mean climber?





I don't understand commission based sales.

Seems like the sales man should get a paid a salary to sell as much work as possible at the RIGHT price, not get paid more to rush through more quotes and close more by under-pricing, and making the crew try to make up the difference, as happens too often, it seems.
How do people that don't know the crew's capabilities sell work with big outfits, or what's more, a sales person who doesn't know how to climb/ rig/ fell/ prune trees.


If you're breaking even on your job, where wages, fuels, and all the rest of the overhead equals the price of the job, the boss might as well keep everyone home and just open up his wallet for a lost day of work/ opportunity for profit. The boss loses. No risk of vehicular accidents, personal accidents, machine breaking down in the yard (I got a big cobble between my mini's track and the first roller, and employee maybe/ probably would have broken the track or something else, forcing it).


If you're ever breaking even on jobs, figure out why. Most companies can't afford to break even 20% of the time.

 

[MasterBlaster]

How does gripfast mean climber?

Yea! It's not like he called himself HangOn!

 

[Gripfast]

Gripfast is the Leslie family moto. A young Scottish squire was escorting a queen across a raging creek, she started to slip from her saddle and the squire grabbed her and yeld "Gripfast me lady!" or so the story goes. I used it online most of my life............

Yeah Sean, thats why I am here trying to figure it all out and what is best in the industry. We are a small outfit and its my second job. I work 3 days a week doing it among lots of other things.

As far as breaking even on my quotes that had some to do with machinery issues. Chipper breaks down now I got to slash and stomp brush what was going to be a 2 job day now turns into 1 or what was going to be a 1 day job now turns into 2. Or I misjudged how long a tree would take me........im not perfect........
I understand your point and disagree as far as not working if your going to break even ocasionally. Guys got to get paid and if you cant keep a certain amount of work going you wont have guys to work for you.

But yes I am actively working to dial in the whys and become better at all aspects of the work. Thanks for your continual input.

 

[SeanKroll]

You do need to keep the guys working.

Personally, I always have some shop work as preventative maintenance to avoid some repairs, or in place of a mechanic to repair or maintain stuff. If I'm just going to cover wages, I'd rather pay those wages, and less WC to do so maintenance or repair and not outsource some stuff.

I'm no millionaire, though.


A broken chipper is not a bad bid, its a broken chipper.

Making two days out of a one day job because people forgot tools at the shop is not a bad bid, its problematic organization.




I made a bidding sheet for a guy who was bidding for me in the past. It itemized everything, with a space for making out necessary equipment (pickup, chip truck, trailer, chipper, tall orchard ladder, loader, big bar), checking for irrigation locations, septic, utilities lines, space between critical fence posts (I've squeezed in with well under an inch on both sides because I measured precisely), etc..

Jobber is very, very helpful. If you sign up for a trial month, you can get the hang quickly. If you sign up and pay several months, your referrer and you both get a $75 account credit, last I checked.


Jobber has timekeeping components and such, built right in. Easier to track dollars per hours, perhaps. I don't get time to do that stuff, honestly.


Paid up front, its about $600 for the year. Forget to collect on one invoice, and you've already paid it.
Customers sometimes forget, or one person does the tree sales visit and contracting, and the other person in the home does the bill paying. Easy to have an innocent non-payment.

 

[squisher]

A tree company should never be breaking even on jobs. Just some will make more profit than others. Zero profit = hobby not business.

 

[SeanKroll]

WAY TOO OFTEN, tree co's undervalue/ underbid. I'm doing that myself, mentally, right now, thinking of how much to bill the HOA for yesterday's willow. Is $250/ hour reasonable, if done with two men, a mini, and chipper/ chip truck (ripped the stump out, rather than needing a grinder)? Seemed very efficient to me. Other guys woulda pulled into the neighbor's driveway without permission to chip, or parked in the street, and had a bunch of minimum wage laborers humping stuff uphill, no plywood roadway unloading/ installation, and pick-up/ reloading. Do I charge under $250, so as to try to keep the "send an invoice when you're done", rather than "send me a bid so I can run it past the HOA board". I've done $13K recently for them. Mental back and forth.

I'm figuring $250 plus tax, with a good itemization of the work, and justification of time, so the HOA rep can present a bill to the HOA board, with saying X,Y,Z done. Greenbelt work accomplished with access through homeowner property with no sign of impact/ only minor impact where pre-approved. A lot of foot traffic hauling stuff uphill in the rain makes a noticeable impact.

Is $250/ hour enough? I always say the mini does the work of 5-10 guys without the worry It only works an hour run-time per job, on average. It would take 10 guys to carry a log uphill, compared to #TheOgreDontCare (running joke at work whenever our backs are thanking us). Then those 10 guys are tired and prone to mistakes and injuries.




Can you do something that would up both of your games somehow? If you buy a mini/ grapple and way to haul, can you charge him a set rate (dunno, run-time hours as a baseline, or day-rate).

Tree companies make a lot more money when machines do machine-friendly work. Way less Worker's Comp and injuries.










You need to ask how many of your bids converted to jobs.

You do not want it to be a high percentage, like 95%, unless you're really sure of your numbers, and predictability (someone can cost the company $10,000 with the insertion of a piece of steel in the chipper feed chute, accidentally. Not likely to be the highest skilled person on the crew doing that). Again, back to getting rid of grunts with machines.

 

[SkwerI]

Sean, you make too big of a deal about it. Just determine an hourly rate for running your loader. You don't have the only one in the world and others have figured out how to bill for equipment time.

 

[SeanKroll]

I think we agree on all those points.



Brian, do you have a suggestion about how to bill for it? I already am clear that I'm not sure, and other people have figured it out.


I don't figure many things out for myself. Collective knowledge is way easier and more productive. Almost everything was taught to me about everything. I don't discover than many new things for myself. I extend that knowledge to other things, and practice and observe, but other's insights and suggestions are very, very valuable.

 

[Cobleskill]

To give you an idea of the agriculture value of a skid steer with operator. 2018 prices average per hour with operator (Michigan University figures) =$62, high $90 low $20. You have more liability to figure in and the value of the work is higher, but that gives you a rough idea of machine costs.

 

[SkwerI]

Rough ballpark I'd charge about $50 per hour up and above your normal rate without the loader.

 

[SeanKroll]

Thanks.

 

[Tree09]

Several oldtimers told me that you sit down, and write out everything you have expenses for, then your guys hourly rate, then your rate. You add all that up and that's your bottom line. Then you figure what percent profit you want, and then multiply that by the estimated hours. So for your mini, it would be the payment, plus the guy running it, plus maintenance, plus replacement cost, plus insurance. Add that up, amoritized over a work month for your payments, and then that's the bottom line. In construction, where the jobs are huge and missing a bid could be millions of dollars, every company has professional estimators who do the bidding. They have it figured down to every single piece and task on the job, then they add profit and if needed, will even go so far as jobsite restrictions as an additional percentage. For example, a company is going to lay a pipe going down the middle of a road. Obviously an interstate will be much more demanding and difficult than a side street, so they will multiply everything by a percentage to come up with the pricing for the interstate work, while still using their basic time valuations.

In tree work, super picky customers, super nice yards, trees by traffic, etc all will need a higher percentage. By breaking it all down like this, you will not only be able to bid more accurately, you can then go back and figure out exactly where you missed (either high or low). By reviewing your work, you will find bottlenecks and other problems with the operation, and then can continually make improvements based on what you bid vs what it actually took.

Also, in construction, it's actually very common for a company to intentionally lose money on a job, but use that to get their foot in the door to displace another contractor or to keep other contractors at bay. Sometimes, they figure that the change orders (changes to prints made during construction as the guys figure out that what they had designed won't work) will be enough to be the entire profit, so they will bid low to get it knowing that when it's all over they will come out ahead. It's really a very complicated and dangerous game at that level!!

 

[treebilly]

Change orders. I like that. We always called them “extra tickets”. Same thing. That’s the real money. The company I worked for would reap the benefits from engineers and architects that couldn’t see eye to eye. I made a lot of money off of change orders. I remember being sent to dig a sump crock in and after hearing the dimensions laughing. I dug the foundations and knew that was not gonna work. Even questioned it before hand. Kinda hard to fix after there are five floors built upon supporting walls. I don’t know what the total was but that’s prolly why I’m not an engineer or an architect. My two year old knows that a 12’ diameter circle can’t fit in an 8’ square room.

 

[Gripfast]

We are 210 an hour for a 2 man crew, dump truck and chipper. When I do my bids I first figure out how long it will take me to complete the job and where wood/chips will be going. Then I factor in the risk to property and or my self as both those things hold a higher premium. My goal is always complete the job in less time then I gave my self on the quote. I will add 1-2 hours on quotes to cover frig around factors. I have used the lower quote to get my foot in the door in rich neighborhoods and then get refered to friends and use that opportunity to make my money back.

In saying that some neighborhoods are very competive and if you want to get the quote you might not be making 210 an hour. You might be making 180 an hour your business still makes money but instead of a $600 profit margin your looking at a $300 margin. Quotes are not as easy as people make them seem.

Also just a reminder I dont have access to all numbers as its not my business these are educated guesses. I just worked very hard to make sure I am making my boss money, just he doesn't seem to care much about how much I make............

Sean thanks for sharing your thoughts man thats why I am here too.

I am also well versed in commercial construction. In my early 20's I worked spraying fireproofing from Florida to Maine. It was my fathers business. It was not uncommon for us to have multi million dollar contracts. It was also clear that bidding these projects was also very difficult and no matter how detailed they thought they figured it out they would always mis something. Sometimes like Tree09 said we would low bid to get the job and make up for it in change orders or patch work. The commercial construction world is a vicious cut throat game just as corupt as one would imagaine. My Fathers partner went to jail, and my father died owing 1/2 million to the IRS.........