What people say, and what is actually heard

[Frans]

I have noticed that often what is said, is actually far different from what is heard.

What I find amazing about this phenomena is that on a web forum everything is written down. Not like in open talking where often words can be slurred or spoken quickly or in a strong accent. Then it is far easier to misunderstand. But when things are written down, a person can check and re-read what is written down. Thus the chances of misunderstanding are lowered considerably.

I have often discovered this when talking to customers about their trees.

Here is a great example of this.

Pantheraba posted a picture of a false crotch which has nothing whatsoever to do with the broken ring recall. Completely different rings which have no record of failing:

So, you guys are sending in the entire friction saver and they are replacing it with another FS with a proper ring installed?

I think I have two like this (factory made) and one where John (NoBivy) made up a long one for me (probably 3-4 feet).

On a homemade FS I guess you cut out the FS and then have to re-sew the replacement ring into the FS.

This question is rather disturbing to me.
Here we have a topic of a manufacturer's faulty product which has been detailed in extreme detail as it could potentially kill a person who uses it.
But after numerous posts and discussions about it, and detailed instructions on how to return it, Pantheraba has completely missed the point.
This is scary to me.
How could you so blatantly miss what is being discussed? This misunderstanding could conceivably result in you suffering a major accident or heaven forbid death. Or at the very least, you throwing away perfectly good equipment (maybe thats worse?)

 

[MasterBlaster]

 

[Stumper]

Frans, Instead of assuming that Gary completely missed the point (Which he did NOT by the way- he knows that there are recalled aluminium rings) why don't you explain that his anodized rings are not part of the recall but only bright finish rings that were imported loose and sold loose or in Sherrill spliced products....( If in fact what I said is factual.)

 

[Mr. Sir]

I have noticed that often what is said, is actually far different from what is heard.

I'm hearing arrogance and condescension; is that what you were saying?

 

[Blinky]

[...] why don't you explain that his anodized rings are not part of the recall but only bright finish rings that were imported loose and sold loose or in Sherrill spliced products.

I did that part already.

It's as easy to miss the boat with written communication as it is spoken. People read fast, scan, skip parts. Some writing is clear, some is thick as mud. It just happens. When you're speaking it's easier to do a read back or ask for clarification.

 

[Frans]

Blinky, or Skwerl or somebody DID quickly and clearly explain.


Here is the REAL reason I bring this up.

Ever since the WCGT, I have been searching my heart as to why I copped such a safety attitude at the climb.

This is all gonna sound kinda neurotic, but here goes.

Am I such a bitch that I just have an inbred bad attitude?
Am I 'better' than anyone else that I have the right to dictate my own personal methods toward safety?

these are the things I have been thinking about.

See, I truly listened to all your complaints. And I have been considering if they were valid, or not.


Here is a bit of history to help explain myself. I have been in many situations over the years where great climbers that say all the right words, and seem to be great climbers, have done oddly dumb things in stressful situations. The times I did nothing, those guys got hurt.

It has happened to me several times.

My solution is to be over protective. I have never been able to harden my heart and let a guy get hurt, just to protect his feelings.

I even got into it with Burnham, when he was manning the station at the top, and had just his flip line holding him in. I asked him to set his climb line as a back up and so if he had to move quickly, he would have that back up in place.

I forget his name, but one guy wanted me to set up a rack to descend with. He said he knew how to use it (Burnham had just demo'd it), just could not remember how to set it up.
I refused and told him to practice new stuff low and slow and to use a familiar method for descending. It got tense there for a second, as it did with Burnham.


This question from Pantheraba brought this situation to my mind again.

My thoughts on this are that it is damm near impossible to really know just what a guy 'hears' and understands in a situation.
the only way is to lay an issue out and see what comes of it.

But safety stuff saves lives, no matter what personal feelings are there.


Got that off my chest, thanks for listening/reading

 

[Frans]

I'm hearing arrogance and condescension; is that what you were saying?

Please don't think that, not where I am coming from.

You little ant

 

[Frans]

Frans, Instead of assuming that Gary completely missed the point (Which he did NOT by the way- he knows that there are recalled aluminium rings)

Uh, then why did he specify anodized? and post a picture?

Maybe he will chime in here.

I know it sucks to bring up specific examples and name names, but thats the only way I know how to do it.

 

[Mr. Sir]

I guess I proved your point.

 

[Frans]

People read fast, scan, skip parts. Some writing is clear, some is thick as mud.

With stuff like a recall, I personally pay attention. My ass is on the line and I fully intend to be around for awhile. If for nothing else but to bother people

 

[Frans]

I guess I proved your point.

I was joking

 

[Mr. Sir]

I'm always joking. It's my nature, but it's also often misinterpreted.

 

[pantheraba]

I have noticed that often what is said, is actually far different from what is heard.

What I find amazing about this phenomena is that on a web forum everything is written down. Not like in open talking where often words can be slurred or spoken quickly or in a strong accent. Then it is far easier to misunderstand. But when things are written down, a person can check and re-read what is written down. Thus the chances of misunderstanding are lowered considerably.

I have often discovered this when talking to customers about their trees.

Here is a great example of this.

Pantheraba posted a picture of a false crotch which has nothing whatsoever to do with the broken ring recall. Completely different rings which have no record of failing:



This question is rather disturbing to me.
Here we have a topic of a manufacturer's faulty product which has been detailed in extreme detail as it could potentially kill a person who uses it.
But after numerous posts and discussions about it, and detailed instructions on how to return it, Pantheraba has completely missed the point.
This is scary to me.
How could you so blatantly miss what is being discussed? This misunderstanding could conceivably result in you suffering a major accident or heaven forbid death. Or at the very least, you throwing away perfectly good equipment (maybe thats worse?)

WOW!!! Man, Fran, you are really a piece of work...you just seem to really get off sometimes.

Justin is right...I DO know that the recall is for AL rings (that is the scientific designation for aluminum, BTW). I googled images of false crotches and just grabbed one as an example of a FC....bad on me for not realizing in an internet picture that the rings that happened to be on the FC that I chose were not aluminum. Blinky politely pointed out that the rings I showed were not part of the recall and I appreciated him being able to tell from that picture that they weren't aluminum.

And Mr. Sir is right, too...I hear "arrogance and condescension"...your last line is pretty disturbing, too..."throwing away perfectly good equipment (maybe thats worse?)"...so that's maybe worse than my serious injury or death?

I figure you are either off your meds or PMS'ing. Either way, please try to get a grip. I have no friggin' doubt that you are a superior climber in skills, technique and experience...it constantly comes thru in your posts. But you have got a LONG ways to go when it comes to successfully interacting with folks.

Although maybe I should count myself successful if I can so accidentally get you so pissed off you just take off on a real rant.

No harm, no foul...just chill a bit, please.

 

[Frans]

Gary, thanks for chiming in. I appreciate it.
I honestly thought, remember from reading your post carefully, that you were talking about anodized rings. You did not make this clear.

This post is about me 'chilling'. BTW.

 

[pantheraba]

Gary, thanks for chiming in. I appreciate it.
I honestly thought, remember from reading your post carefully, that you were talking about anodized rings. You did not make this clear.

This post is about me 'chilling'. BTW.

Yeah, I saw that part after I posted my reply...glad you are paying attention.

Check back if you need to...I never used the word anodized...I was just showing a FC. The word "aluminum" had already been bandied about so much that I didn't even think to specify again what type metal was involved.

Later.

 

[Ryan]

There's no harm in worrying about people's safety Frans. I'm sure it may have rubbed Burnam the wrong way, telling him to TITS but if you didn't say something it would've probably bugged you the entire time he was up in the tree. What's more important-people's feelings or personal safety?

 

[Blinky]

OK, technically? Those grey rings ARE anodized aluminum.

 

[pantheraba]

OK, technically? Those grey rings ARE anodized aluminum.

Hahahaha That's all I'll say.

 

[DMc]

I have been in many situations over the years where great climbers that say all the right words, and seem to be great climbers, have done oddly dumb things in stressful situations. The times I did nothing, those guys got hurt.

You are not alone here, Frans. I think anybody who has been in the industry for any length of time, runs into these situations. How you respond to these situations affects the outcome of more than just that moment.

The thing you need to constantly keep reminding yourself is people need their freedom. Without free will the spirit shrivels. When I am in a tree, it is my life, my rules. I will point out what I believe to be dangerous activities to an individual but will not force the issue. If the situation has been explained to my satisfaction and they are no longer ignorant of the conseqences, then I am satisfied. Because it is after all their life and their choice.

Dave

 

[Frans]

I will point out what I believe to be dangerous activities to an individual but will not force the issue.

Thats a great solution to what has been bugging me.
Thank you for the help/advice

 

[Blinky]

I will point out what I believe to be dangerous activities to an individual but will not force the issue. If the situation has been explained to my satisfaction and they are no longer ignorant of the conseqences, then I am satisfied. Because it is after all their life and their choice.

Dave

That has been used on me and I've used it on others. It's the best you can do without overstepping.

In a comp though, there are rules for both competitors and judges. Every time I've tree teched I had a lifeline on with the rope bagged and hung beside me. The tech in tree is responsible for safety in the tree and that could mean a rescue.

With competitors, safety is first but as a head judge in footlock I kept the belays loose on the skilled guys because in my experience, the way to really piss off a footlocker and bring results into question is to hold a tight belay and restrict their movement.

The head judge for each event is the frikken boss. Lodge a protest if you want but you either comply or leave the ring. Somebody gets hurt, the first person on the grill is the head judge.

 

[DMc]

Brevity often comes back to bite me on the butt. Of course, I was referring to climbing amongst friends, as mentioned by Frans. In the world of competitions or even in the work place where you are to follow set rules by an employer or judge, that is what you must do. That is a different situation.

Dave

 

[Frans]

In the comps its all about flair, and maybe who you know

 

[Blinky]

... and maybe who you know

Not in my arena... Imma bastard.