What is the Circle of Death?

[stig]

Brian, it has happened to me.
I don't consider myself a gormless newbie, do you?

That moment when you are being pulled in and know you have frigged up badly is one that stays with you for the rest of your time in the trees.

 

[stig]

Agreed.

It happened to me in an alianthus, it’s not worth obsessing about, but being aware of it and when it might happen is no bad thing.

Ailathus is in my opinion the worst tree we have in Europe.

Almost worth starting a thread about, to keep newbies from getting hurt or worse.

 

[rfwoody]

what does "once is none, twice is one" mean? thanks.

(been busy... I'm at stig's story from 3 days ago,
but I glanced down and saw Mick's comment about remembering Butch's "once is none, twice is one" saying,
so I jumped ahead to ask this quick question) thanks.

 

[stig]

If you cut your lanyard by accident and one have tied in once, what do you think will happen?
If you are (correctly) tied in twice and cut your lanyard, you still have one tie in left.

 

[SeanKroll]

TITS

TIE
IN
TWICE,
SILLY/ STUPID (person).

 

[Mick!]

Not just about cutting, a myriad of things can cause your single tie in to fail when things get dynamic, usually human error.

 

[SeanKroll]

Along with TITS,

LOOK
LISTEN
FEEL
when connecting a new life support system.
Test the new one with full load and slack in the old (already tested) system, before disconnecting the old one.

Never interrupt setting a life-support system. Once you begin, follow through to the end.


Two weeks ago, rather than staying on the assigned task of getting saws ready while the crane was setting up, my former employee ("toolbox face") wanted to start jabbering to me about my new ms461 while I was setting up my life support system. I ignored him entirely, except the mental distraction of being frustrated with his process.
My other guy, first day on the job, noticed I asked him for the same saws 3 times. He couldn't manage that.

Beware of homeowners and others endangering you through distraction.

 

[rfwoody]

stig, Sean, Mick, Sean --- THANKS!

(now back to 3 days ago and continue catching up)

 

[MasterBlaster]

They're already using one pic of me (doing something wrong) at the safety meetings.

Here's one where I'm doing right.

Betchya they don't use it!

 

[rfwoody]

cool pic, Butch.

Probably reason they won't use this pic is because you are smoking ...politically incorrect, right

 

[rfwoody]

great warnings, Stig!

thanks for the continued good words of experience, Sean, Mick.

 

[rfwoody]

Thanks Sam, that's what I was wondering about it slipping by itself.

Thanks Brocky, to me that is very interesting that they address the COD in a 2002 catalog.... but nothing about it (that I saw) in the newest catalog (?!)

Thanks Marc-Antoine -- that is sort of the basic concept I had been envisioning.... where the prussik lanyard (length) tender/adjuster would grab enough to keep the climber in position whereever they set it, but would "freely" slip if lots of pressure was applied to it in the other direction.
.... but as Brocky said, this is only good as long as the end of the lanyard doesn't get hung up in something below, etc.

Brian, yes that is what I'm hoping, that I won't be climbing anything big enough for the COD to be an issue ----
--- but then there is the thing (sort of like the COD) about not tying in to a branch (2nd tie in point) that you are cutting the end of off, because it could split and pull you in to the limb, right?

Thanks All for sharing your thoughts, warnings, experiences, etc. about this in all these posts.

 

[sawman]

Along with TITS,

LOOK
LISTEN
FEEL
when connecting a new life support system.
Test the new one with full load and slack in the old (already tested) system, before disconnecting the old one.

Never interrupt setting a life-support system. Once you begin, follow through to the end.



This is great advice

 

[Tree09]

Agreed. If someone is talking to me when I'm setting up I tell them to hold on for a min, if I get this wrong I die. They usually shut up pretty quickly after that, and if not I make them. Double check everything too, very good habit to get into.

 

[pantheraba]

Yep...same here. Folks seem to have a 1,000 questions sometimes when I am gearing up to go up a tree. I tell them, "sorry, I can't talk...I need to focus on what I am doing for now."

It's too easy to get cavalier and miss something. I remember getting about 10 feet up one day and realizing one leg of my eye-eye hitch was not on the biner. Everything was holding but I got a pretty good adrenaline rush and gave myself a good ass kicking. I check often in the tree to see if both eyes are attached..and if the biner is side loaded (sometimes it is)...and that the lanyard actually DID close completely on the side D...that the rigging line is not going to effect my climbing line...etc. Constant checks of safety systems is a must.

 

[SeanKroll]

Good thing to point out, Gary. A new climber on TB showed a video where his loaded rigging line was running across his loaded climbing line. He didn't know until watching the video later.

 

[rfwoody]

wow, great advice, reminders, warning, instruction for a nooby

 

[Tim_B.]

Hey, Robert! Just wanted to say it is a pleasure reading you on this forum. You ask a lot of great questions that elicit great responses from all of the veteran climbers here. They end up telling stories about past experiences that I've never read before in all my time on this forum.

So, welcome to the Tree House forum, and thanks for jumping right in with both feet. I look forward to reading more from you, and hearing about how things turn out.

The one small thing I would add to the conversation, which old school climbers might think excessive, is the idea promoted by Kevin Bingham of using two complete climbing systems at the same time. Then you are always "tied in twice", and at times might be able to eliminate a lanyard wrapped around a limb or stem that seems likely to split down the middle. Having two systems also makes work positioning a lot easier, in my experience. Plus it still gives you a way to get down from the tree if you were to accidently cut a climb line. With just one lanyard and one climb line, if you cut your climb line, you are not dead, but you also may not have a way to get back down.

Also, if you are working alone, like I must do oftentimes, keep a charged up cell phone with you in case of emergencies. Just in case nobody has mentioned this yet. If I only ever climbed when there was someone around willing to give up hours of their time just to attend to me, I would rarely if ever be able to climb. So I just take everything slowly, think about everything I do before I do it, and work in as conservative and safe a manner as I'm able to. If I ever get into trouble, it will most likely have to be me that gets me out of it. So I try to give myself lots of options, and using two systems helps me in that regard. Thanks for listening, & take what I say with a grain of salt. I'm not a veteran pro like most here.

Tim

 

[Brocky]

Your advice sounds like you're a pro, Tim!

 

[MasterBlaster]

I dunno about two complete climbing systems, not for production climbing.

 

[Tim_B.]

Yeah, Butch, two complete systems might be a hard sell to a production climber. Although I thought I remember reading that Kevin Bingham had the discipline and tenacity to try to use it exclusively for at least a good while, in order to give it a fair shot and see how it affected the way that he works. He might still climb using two systems, for all I know. I think Kevin liked the impact it had on how he works, at least at that time.

Having said all of that, the member who started this thread (Robert) is fairly new to climbing, by his own admission, and I think he is under little pressure from outside to perform at any certain speed. His objective seems to me to be that of safely accomplishing a task that he sets for himself. So he has the freedom to take as much time as he needs to to get his systems set up in a way that makes him feel comfortable and safe. At least that is my interpretation of things. I think that if Robert has the necessary equipment to run two systems, and he has the time, he should give it a try and see what he thinks of it.

I've had instances in my own climbing where having the ability with a second system to move just six inches in another direction made my life a whole lot easier. The particular circumstance I'm thinking of is one in which your climbing system gets jambed up hard against a big branch or leader that you need to be able to climb beyond. The rope is falling back over the branch on its way up to the suspension point, and the fact that all of your body weight is crushing it against the leader makes it pretty tough to move the system past the branch. With a second system, I can just pull myself half a foot back away from the leader and keep on progressing easily.

Since I think Robert is probably working by himself, and teaching himself, he can likely make his own work conditions, and operate however he sees fit.

Tim

 

[adaycj]

I've tried two complete systems on a few occasions. I think it's both good and bad.

Like anything else I guess there are "IFs". If the tree is pretty sketchy, if there is another place that I can set another system, if I can set it all up in a reasonable time ... then it can be an advantage and likely be safer. On certain occasions also more efficient. I also have grown to like having the hardware available for a complete system backup. I'm working on a plan to cycle more consumable items through the system as they wear. It also gives me the chance to try new stuff. If it works better than the stuff I typically use great. If not as long as it isn't a big fail I can use it in the second system and just put up with it on the occasions I need it.

On the other hand. The upfront costs are high. Over a long period it isn't a big deal, but proper safe gear is pretty pricey. Two sets at once is almost ridiculous. Sometimes the second system isn't practical. What's the point of using a second system if they are both in the same tree on a similar good TIP at the same height? The benefits diminish quickly. Every good climber should have a host of options when they develop a work plan, but sometimes there are better options that should be considered. A one track thought process that aims towards two systems as a default (like industrial work at height) may not be the best thing in trees.

Finally there are some counter intuitive things too. Two complete systems may put the climber at more risk. What if the tree does split, barber chair, or otherwise spontaneously disassemble while a climber is aloft? Having an extra solid attachment point with a 5000#+ tensile strength attachment to the climber's saddle may become a huge liability when thousands of pounds of wood is flying around unexpectedly. What if a 1000# chunk flies straight towards the neighboring tree and a leader snags your opposite climbing line on that tree? Unlikely, I know. But this conversation was started about COD, which by its name indicates an event that wasn't planned.

I think having a second system available is a good idea. It is another tool in the kit that can be potentially towards a safe efficient work plan. But when dealing with any tree that decides to come apart in places other than where I make my cuts, it requires a significant amount of planning and foresight to use a second system to drastically increase safety while at the same time not increasing risk. The problem is that sometimes the bad stuff can happen unexpectedly. Two tie offs, and a lanyard in an appropriate configuration may be better bets that can be used more consistently.

 

[Tim_B.]

Robert, thanks for the thoughtful response. On smaller trees, with fairly small crowns, which I don't often climb, I don't bother to use two separate systems. Mostly it is on trees that are pretty tall and that have some amount of canopy spread. On a straight up and down stem, a second system might not have a point, unless there is a nearby tree in which to place it. I could see doing that if I thought a stem was really quite sketchy. I've never tried using a breakaway lanyard, but that would be the situation in which I'd want to come up with one.

As you say, you have to look at each situation with fresh eyes and figure out what kind of a setup will allow you to work comfortably and safely. For myself, I tend to climb fairly healthy trees with broad spreading canopies, oak trees for the most part, so I find two systems to be very helpful. Every circumstance is different, however, and each climber has to figure out what works for them.

Thanks so much, again, for your thoughtful response. I look forward to reading more about how your new enterprise develops. Especially with regard to the steps you take in trying to build a business. Exciting stuff.



Tim

 

[rfwoody]

Check in woody, you still walkin the earth?

haha, hi Levi and all.

Went on a little vacation and then I figured it was enough talk and time for work before posting much more, so I started on the job with the dead/dying silver maple(?) in the small front yard. .....I was planning to make a little compilation of some of the work when it was done.

But just for an update so far

>>> Have put into practice a lot of great ideas and advice learned from all the pros at this forum. Thanks!!

e.g. cut small pieces off the limbs ------ I learned to respect the size/weight of those "small" limbs when one came down and broke my driver's side mirror

Ruminating over and over how to set up rigging from the ground per Sean, but couldn't figure how to do it with this tree.

So far I have been one day on the job using a 6' step ladder in the back of my truck (not going higher than 3rd rung) and a 15' pole saw (manual) cutting back all the extending out branches.... trying to "shrink" back the width/height so it will fit into the yard when I fall/fell it.

There are several obstacles/hazards(?) (forgot which is which).... a couple of windows close by, a little electric light post in the yard, the neighbor's house, I little crepe myrtle, etc. etc. all within reach of falling branches depending how I cut them.

Some branches I need to cut are outside reach of my 15' corona pole saw (bought at Home Depot many years ago), so I ordered, just today, the 21' Silky Hayauchi --- I hope I don't bend the poles... .and with this I plan to be able to safely cut back the several remaining long limbs that are sticking out in all directions.... then cut the limbs off near the trunk (e.g. standing on pickup truck bed with chainsaw).... then fell/fall the remaining trunk safely.

Also, I might try Sean's idea of the throw weight and throw line and pulling down dead/brittle limbs just with pulling on both ends of the throwline on the limbs..... but I need to make sure there is no danger of limbs hitting hazards/obstacles in this confined space.

All is cleaned up from the one day's work, and tree is in stable state, so planning on going back next week when it is supposed to be dry and finish it up in 2 days with the new 21' pole saw.

Thanks again everyone for all the great advice and help --- good, bad, ugly --- all and everyone. Thanks!

Will plan to report back with all final info and outcome.

 

[rfwoody]

Hey, Robert! Just wanted to say it is a pleasure reading you on this forum. You ask a lot of great questions that elicit great responses from all of the veteran climbers here. They end up telling stories about past experiences that I've never read before in all my time on this forum.

So, welcome to the Tree House forum, and thanks for jumping right in with both feet. I look forward to reading more from you, and hearing about how things turn out.

The one small thing I would add to the conversation, which old school climbers might think excessive, is the idea promoted by Kevin Bingham of using two complete climbing systems at the same time. Then you are always "tied in twice", and at times might be able to eliminate a lanyard wrapped around a limb or stem that seems likely to split down the middle. Having two systems also makes work positioning a lot easier, in my experience. Plus it still gives you a way to get down from the tree if you were to accidently cut a climb line. With just one lanyard and one climb line, if you cut your climb line, you are not dead, but you also may not have a way to get back down.

Also, if you are working alone, like I must do oftentimes, keep a charged up cell phone with you in case of emergencies. Just in case nobody has mentioned this yet. If I only ever climbed when there was someone around willing to give up hours of their time just to attend to me, I would rarely if ever be able to climb. So I just take everything slowly, think about everything I do before I do it, and work in as conservative and safe a manner as I'm able to. If I ever get into trouble, it will most likely have to be me that gets me out of it. So I try to give myself lots of options, and using two systems helps me in that regard. Thanks for listening, & take what I say with a grain of salt. I'm not a veteran pro like most here.

Tim

Hey Tim. Thanks a lot for your kind note.

I still haven't taken the plunge on buying my climbing stuff yet.... but that "two complete climbing systems" idea sounds just like my speed!
Since I am not a "production" worker and have the luxury of going more or less at my own pace, that might be just the thing that would give this overweight older nooby the added safety and confidence to go for it.... (not to mention the other great advice in this thread by others).
Thanks again for taking the time to share your helpful advice!