Robert, a tree splitting out on you will only happen if you are taking large tops or heavy leaning limbs in one cut, rather than piecing them out. It is safer to make many small cuts rather than just cutting the tree in half. The other times when a breakaway lanyard come into play is when you are climbing stuff that is on the border of being safe at all. By using a different tree for your tie in point, a very skilled climber can climb dead trees that are about to fall over, but the risk is if the tree goes, they could go with it. Hence the breakaway part. Remember doing this is not a job for a beginner to average climber. You are basically violating the two tie in point rule by using a breakaway, but it's the only way to do some trees (by climbing).
What is the Circle of Death?
- Thread starter rfwoody
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rfwoody
Treehouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #52
Sobering. Amazing video. The effect on that tree as well as you swinging away at that height and watching it go over.
Are smaller tops and diameters less risky than these larger ones?
Is it mainly the topping that one must mostly watch out for the barber-chairing or bark splitting vs. chunking down chunks after it has been topped?
Would a rigging rope wrapped several times around work as well as a chain?
rfwoody
Treehouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #54
Thanks a lot, Kyle!
There is a pine tree at my mother-in-law's that I am debating to be my initial "take-down" if I move forward with climbing.
It has a slight lean, it is about 18-24" at DBH and 40-50' tall.
I would never want to violate the double tie-in when cutting rule.
"...You are basically violating the two tie in point rule by using a breakaway...", interesting, I think I get it.
I also don't want to climb anything that is questionable or "dangerous"
But the idea of having an expandable lanyard connected to the saddle bridge seems "safe" .... maybe I'm getting too obsessed with the circle of death.
Merle Nelson
TreeHouser
Robert speaking to a point you asked about, you can get a similar experience from small wood/limbs. I had my lanyard wrapped around a Euc tree twice so it would cinch tight and hold me if my spurs ripped out. I was being a bit cavalier about multiple small leads coming out near the top and was just cutting through single slice from the top. One piece 4 or 5 inches in dia and 15 feet long ripped away rather than fell clear because my saw sputtered while in the cut and Euc has amazing holding fibers to rip down well. It sucked me lanyard tight and smacked my nose into another stem in the top before it ripped free and fell. All climber induced obviously.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
No chains on an 8" top, lol.
Maybe on over 18" or up if called for.
Maybe on over 18" or up if called for.
SeanKroll
Treehouser
EDIT: I could use a pro proof-reader.
A small piece can trigger a split.
IF the tree had a heavy lean, and it has weight relieved, it will go into a state of internal tension that it hasn't had before, as it wants to 'stand up' from being 'bent over'.
When I'm chunking a bigleaf maple that was very bent over and weighted down, I cut above a crotch as I chunk, as possible. The crotch interrupts the straight grain from splitting downward. If I cut below the crotch, it might want to split lower, as the crotch acts as a binder.
Gord had a spar split video where his steel-core flip line and mechanical adjuster came tight, without crushing him. Big Leaf Maple. Grufrock is his youtube posting name. I didn't find the video, but Gord is the man. Kinda disappearred. Don't know if he was a member here.
Imagine if you were lanyarded into this...<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2YAf61zz5VU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Maples can be felt 'popping' as you cut the trunk sections out of the tree, frequently.
A small piece can trigger a split.
IF the tree had a heavy lean, and it has weight relieved, it will go into a state of internal tension that it hasn't had before, as it wants to 'stand up' from being 'bent over'.
When I'm chunking a bigleaf maple that was very bent over and weighted down, I cut above a crotch as I chunk, as possible. The crotch interrupts the straight grain from splitting downward. If I cut below the crotch, it might want to split lower, as the crotch acts as a binder.
Gord had a spar split video where his steel-core flip line and mechanical adjuster came tight, without crushing him. Big Leaf Maple. Grufrock is his youtube posting name. I didn't find the video, but Gord is the man. Kinda disappearred. Don't know if he was a member here.
Imagine if you were lanyarded into this...<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/2YAf61zz5VU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Maples can be felt 'popping' as you cut the trunk sections out of the tree, frequently.
rfwoody
Treehouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #59
Thanks Merle!
This is a really good bit of practical instruction!
In retrospect, just trying to learn, if you had undercut the limb before the top cut it would have been ok?
And in this case, even if the limb hadn't broken, it might not have squeezed your insides enough to damage you, correct?
rfwoody
Treehouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #61
Amazing how quickly all that mass moves up the stem.
Would you please elaborate on this? Thanks ...... "...When I'm chunking a bigleaf maple that was very bent over and weighted down, I cut about a crotch as I chunk..." (cut about (around) a natural crotch in the tree?).
Yes. Usually before you become a climber you have lots of experience doing trees from the ground, so you know what you are looking for. If a tree splits in the air while you are tied to it, it's bad. So nipping the sides, bore cutting, etc becomes way more important. As a self taught beginning climber, you shouldn't be putting yourself against that kind of technical work. Climb higher and cut small, and don't tie into large horizontal limbs if you attempt to drop them in one shot. If you are in a situation where you think you might have it split on you, tie your lanyard into itself and connect it on the front. You will lose stability, but you will be protected against a split (small one, large wood and tops requires chain).
SeanKroll
Treehouser
"about" should have been "above". Edited.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Interesting. Do you have anything to substantiate this? I'd like to read more...
SeanKroll
Treehouser
You guys have had hard leaning straight-grained trees start to pop and crack when cutting, right? Crotches/ interruption in the grain limits this, clear, straight grain exacerbates this tendency to split.
Which would you rather cut, hard leaning knotty wood, or straight grained clear wood?
Which would you rather cut, hard leaning knotty wood, or straight grained clear wood?
SeanKroll
Treehouser
I like straight forward.
That is not what it was about.
It was about you claiming that trees suffered internal stresses that could be a danger to the cutter, when we took weight off the top.
Or maybe my understanding of English has deteriorated badly
SeanKroll
Treehouser
We are talking hard-leaning trees, right? Not slightly leaning trees.
Have you seen the video of Gord in a Bigleaf Maple, from a long time ago, with the stem-split? I'm trying to find it.
Why do you chain below your cuts, not just above?
Have you seen the video of Gord in a Bigleaf Maple, from a long time ago, with the stem-split? I'm trying to find it.
Why do you chain below your cuts, not just above?
SeanKroll
Treehouser
SeanKroll
Treehouser
Is it a much different to have a stem suddenly pulled down with huge force, versus, a huge downward force being suddenly relieved, effectively "unbending" the stem, changing the loading within?
Maybe it doesn't make sense, but spars tend to crack and split on other people, too, with good cutting techniques.
Maybe it doesn't make sense, but spars tend to crack and split on other people, too, with good cutting techniques.
SeanKroll
Treehouser
Found what I was looking for...
http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threads/split-spar-suprise.18061/
http://www.treebuzz.com/forum/threads/split-spar-suprise.18061/
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Two is one... one is none.
Sean, we are talking parallel to each other, I think.
You said that trees suffered from internal stress that was dangerous to the cutter when we took of weight in their crown.
That is what I've been going on about since.
Now you are talking about something entirely different.
The chain below is because a famous ( For being a real he-man) Danish logger arbo, cut a beech and got badly hurt when it split down.
Lost 11 meters of his small intestine.
He managed to frig up 3 times on one job:
He had a thing going , where he'd top out trees in the forest for a fixed ( Way the frig too low) price if the forest district could get 10 trees together.
Went in alone to do a topping job ( Robert, this is mistake #1)
Took a codominant leader out, while being tied in in the " circle of death" ( Robert, this is mistake # 2)
His climbing rope was too short, so he had to clip out and fall 6 meters in order to reach the ground. ( Robert, this is mistake # 3)
Crawled back to his car and drove to the nearest hospital.
This was before the advent of cell phones and easy help.
For some obscure reason, he became a hero in the Danish arbo circle.
Sot of: "Man, he is one tough son of a bitch to survive that."
To me he is a complete idiot, who should have died, had there been any justice.
Interesting sub story:
Last year Richard and I were taking out a really nasty large, Fomes fomentarium infected beech for the State Forestry service.
They wanted ( as always) the stem left for habitat.
Only reason we agreed to do it was a nearby tree to tie into.
We'd set a line in that tree and I was just about to go up, when a speed talking lady and a bunch of young kids ( 20+.........anything below 40 is young to me today) came up.
Turned out to be a class of arborists from the forestry school, on a hazard tree course with Iben Margrethe Thomsen, our foremost expert in wood decaying fungus.
She is in the genius+ class. A most amazing person.
So she asked if they could watch, and we went through a whole spiel about what we did and why.
I was tied in with a cable tie, as breakaway on my lanyard, so I could just drop that nasty top in one and if it went pear shaped, break out and swing away.
I was telling the kids about the circle of death, and one of them said, "That is what got my dad."
Turned out, he was the youngst son of the above mentioned idiot.
I just told him that I knew about his dad's accident and that it had made me appreciate the dangers of splitting trees more.
No reason to tell him, I consider his dad a moron.
You said that trees suffered from internal stress that was dangerous to the cutter when we took of weight in their crown.
That is what I've been going on about since.
Now you are talking about something entirely different.
The chain below is because a famous ( For being a real he-man) Danish logger arbo, cut a beech and got badly hurt when it split down.
Lost 11 meters of his small intestine.
He managed to frig up 3 times on one job:
He had a thing going , where he'd top out trees in the forest for a fixed ( Way the frig too low) price if the forest district could get 10 trees together.
Went in alone to do a topping job ( Robert, this is mistake #1)
Took a codominant leader out, while being tied in in the " circle of death" ( Robert, this is mistake # 2)
His climbing rope was too short, so he had to clip out and fall 6 meters in order to reach the ground. ( Robert, this is mistake # 3)
Crawled back to his car and drove to the nearest hospital.
This was before the advent of cell phones and easy help.
For some obscure reason, he became a hero in the Danish arbo circle.
Sot of: "Man, he is one tough son of a bitch to survive that."
To me he is a complete idiot, who should have died, had there been any justice.
Interesting sub story:
Last year Richard and I were taking out a really nasty large, Fomes fomentarium infected beech for the State Forestry service.
They wanted ( as always) the stem left for habitat.
Only reason we agreed to do it was a nearby tree to tie into.
We'd set a line in that tree and I was just about to go up, when a speed talking lady and a bunch of young kids ( 20+.........anything below 40 is young to me today) came up.
Turned out to be a class of arborists from the forestry school, on a hazard tree course with Iben Margrethe Thomsen, our foremost expert in wood decaying fungus.
She is in the genius+ class. A most amazing person.
So she asked if they could watch, and we went through a whole spiel about what we did and why.
I was tied in with a cable tie, as breakaway on my lanyard, so I could just drop that nasty top in one and if it went pear shaped, break out and swing away.
I was telling the kids about the circle of death, and one of them said, "That is what got my dad."
Turned out, he was the youngst son of the above mentioned idiot.
I just told him that I knew about his dad's accident and that it had made me appreciate the dangers of splitting trees more.
No reason to tell him, I consider his dad a moron.
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