Tips for keeping long bars level
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HolmenTree
Banned
You are wrong there Magnus, yes for the servicing saw tech the inboard clutch ease for rim sprocket removal is a plus. But how often do you change the rim?
But for the working man the ergonomics of the better centered b/c on the outboard clutch saw when limbing or topping and general work is far better then say the inboard 372 for example. Why is it then the top limbing saws from the 346 , 550 up run outboard?
As said before you can't fully appreciate an outboard until your an expert with the 6 point limbing technique. Then you can see the inboard is plain clumsy
Take a tape measure to the outboard 272 and inboard 372 and compare. The 272 even cuts lower to the ground without the design of the 372's wide top handle which compensates for the wider off center b/c.
Outboard clutches also keep the saw running cooler and help pull out the long chips when cutting off grain.
Back on topic about level cuts. I make my cuts fairly close to the ground and I get the best control by resting my elbows on my knees while felling the tree. Try it, you will be amazed, saw is always held at same height when doing face & backcuts , solid control of saw, pressure and stress taken off lower back and arms.
Magnus
TreeHouser
Overload is when they run too hot and get damage from it.
To cool a saw best is to flip the throttle a couple times without load. Keep air flowing rapidly and without load it creates less heat and cool of pretty fast.
The 262 was too powerful for its design. It was used here as a big sw for felling mostly and it broke fast. It was a big limbing saw, good for general use, but nothing for firewood pile or felling. Seen this proven way too many times...
Magnus
TreeHouser
I change rim every time I change bar. Also chains. rims are cheep and as you say easy to replace on a inboard, so it gets changed too. Not so with outboard as it is harder..
Changing one of two sprockets lead to excessive wear as it needs to wear in to the other worn stuff. Most understand this if this is thought of as a regular chain with two sprockets on a bike.
If you measure from chain out to end of cover I really doubt there is less with out board as it need room for drum, clutch and cover when the inboard need room for cover. But there is more to it than this.
A bearing and crank hold better with weight closer to it, that is also a undisputed fact.
How many limbing saws are made today with inboard clutch?
Jonsered has this on the 400 series and they were loved by all that did this daily and competed at the time. There we talk about cutting close to ground!
Not sure what you refer to with 6 point technique, we talk about moments here...
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
Magnus, what prevents a "powerful" saw from being a good felling saw, as you mention? Are you talking again about the tendency to run hot?
HolmenTree
Banned
Sorry Magnus I wasn't trying to give you a hard time, but I did ramble on pretty good though.
Comparing the 272XP and 372XP, the outboard clutch 272 does have a wider sprocket cover but the 372 has a wider top handle sticking out past it's sprocket cover . After measuring the 2 saws laying level on their sides in the felling position, the 272's b/c is a 1/4" lower to the ground then the 372. Doesn't sound like much but the real difference in the two is the 272's bar is 2" from the center of the crankcase , the 372 is 2 3/4". Again 3/4" might not seem like much difference, but try shim up the bar on the saw you use the most with a 3/4" spacer and notice how off balance it feels.
About that 6 point limbing technique a fellow from your own country by the name of Soren Eriksson from Siljansnas, Sweden introduced that technique here in North America many many years ago.
We had a thread here on TreeHouse on the subject with video starting on Oct 19 2010, [maybe Butch or Brian can attach the thread here for me].
Weeks after, the subject popped up on A.S., Arb Talk and a few other forums.
Magnus
TreeHouser
I think it is the same were focus is on number of moves, wight support, efficiency when doing it safe!
Sören and others continued developed this in late 60's early 70's, he was a big part of it.
Hard to imagine it takes 35 years for this to cross to North America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DRMNHk3Xjk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XZgB8JNXyk
Sören, Svante Hansson, Lasse Strandell and others are continually improving this and have classes etc to teach.
Inboard clutch versus outboard...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHF3jSSRBzU
Sören and others continued developed this in late 60's early 70's, he was a big part of it.
Hard to imagine it takes 35 years for this to cross to North America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DRMNHk3Xjk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XZgB8JNXyk
Sören, Svante Hansson, Lasse Strandell and others are continually improving this and have classes etc to teach.
Inboard clutch versus outboard...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHF3jSSRBzU
Magnus
TreeHouser
Yes, running hot is the main problem. If you use a chain saw as it is meant to in the woods it is developed to be good at something.
The different things demand different property's in a saw. Felling and bucking demand power and weigt is supported so not so important other than when moving.
Limbing is more handling and weight is a big factor. Power is less important than speed etc.
As you look at the saws and the guy's trying to accommodate the needs they develop saws that are specially good in some areas or general, as in not best in anything, but usable for all.
The engine and how it is composed is what give the saw its profile in general. If it holds high rpm well, if it accelerate fast and is light it is a limbing saw.
If it is more torque, hold rpm better, brute forced and powerful it is more a felling/bucking saw, size is not that important.
When they make a felling saw they make sure it will not run hot. Better cooling/more airflow around cylinder and a lot more power to cover the needs.
This is general rules that is applyed. When users then turn it upside down and use limbing saws for bucking and bucking saws for limbing it takes more knowledge and experiance to make it work well. Listen to engines, maintain the saw is important regardless, but especially when running smaller saws.
woodworkingboy
TreeHouser
Very informative answer, thanks Magnus. I can think about the various saws that I have and my preference to use them for felling, bucking, and limbing, and it much follows what you have described as guidelines for the more advantageous use. Perhaps that is one of the problems with saws today, the manufacturers trying to make them to cover all the tasks, and it leads to compromise. It is interesting to think about. My favorite limbing saws are the 020 rear handle, and the 242xp, both lightweight and with excellent throttle response and quick high rpms. I'll try and do what I can to keep the heat manageable on the 262xp. It's a bit heavy though, for my liking for a limbing saw, and it isn't so often that I need 60ccs for limbs in my area.
Magnus
TreeHouser
This has been the tuffest nut to crack so far in chainsaw designs. Making one that is perfect for all is impossible.
254 was a good saw for general purposes, 262 is same saw but bigger cc and more aggressive.
Some thought as it was a 60cc saw it would make a good felling saw for larger wood as the 162/266 was.
They were wrong. Some could make it work for a bit, but that is more due to user than saw.
254 was a good saw for general purposes, 262 is same saw but bigger cc and more aggressive.
Some thought as it was a 60cc saw it would make a good felling saw for larger wood as the 162/266 was.
They were wrong. Some could make it work for a bit, but that is more due to user than saw.
HolmenTree
Banned
Thanks for posting that Magnus. But I have to say the faster competitor on the left with the big inboard was the far better operator. Now working in the forest with that big clunker 8 hrs a day I would take the slower guys smaller outboard saw.
Having said all that, There is no proof from that video who won, because the log has to be examined and judged after for closeness and smoothness of cut after limbs are cut off.
The outboard clutched better centered b/c is best suited for the precision part , especially at the 6 point #2 cut when the saw is turned with the sprocket cover up.
HolmenTree
Banned
I haven't handled a 262 since 1990 so I can't make much comment on the overheating issue. But what I do know is the 262 was the first model Husqvarna developed with the air injection system. It's possible being their 1st attempt with this technology, they may have taken too much of the cooling flow off the flywheel and put too much to the carb housing.
You may want to cut off some of the top cover that covers the muffler, like how the Stihl 044 is designed, if you already notice melting problems at that area. This may help the cooling issue.
Like you said , every model is different in application to it's design. I used both my 272 and 372 on the hottest days this summer bucking up stems. The more torque 272 ran flawless in the heat bucking, but the less torque powerband 372 had some lean out conditions and I had to stop and blip the throttle to WOT a few times out of the cut to cool it down.
The 372 has a muffler mod, the 272 doesn't and still has the screen in, plus it has the old school stud from cylinder to carb design.
Magnus
TreeHouser
Magnus
TreeHouser
First saws that came out with the clean air system was in 154/254. Almost 3 years before 262 was released.
Cutting cover will not do much on airflow, but the radiant heat from a far too hot muffler might help a bit.
Better is to keep airflow high and cool saw down.
gf beranek
Old Schooler
Man this is some good info. Keep it coming you guys.
Thank you!!
Thank you!!
Jed
TreeHouser
Yeah, I second that one for sure. And not to derail the derail, but I swear: if you got 100 residential arborists (like me) out on a strip, and had them each fall a tree sidehill, on a steep slope, I'd wager that over 90 per cent of them wld have cuts that sloped downhill in a bad way. There's a weird funhouse effect at work there. Only just today, I had to fall to really small Firs sidehill. Both of my stumps sloped downhill when I went back and looked at them.
HolmenTree
Banned
Magnus , I think you have to do some research. The 262Xp was introduced in early 1990, maybe late 1989 in Europe. Your comment that the 154/254 had air injection 3 yrs before the 262 was released doesn't make sense, that would be 1987 or '86.
Jonsered introduced the technology first with their 2051 Turbo that was released early 1989 . Again Europe may be earlier in 1988.
Poplar Science magazine in 1989 named the Jonsered 2051 Turbo as the "Best what's new product " .
Some other sources of information I have found over the years suggest that it was a joint effort between Jonsered and Partner that invented the first DCS [dust control system].
Magnus
TreeHouser
This is right, Jonsered and Partner had it first, before the husqvarna, 262, 254 and XP series.
The info I have is from Husqvarna. The saws are in collections and with customers to see globally, but they could be altered I guess...
I know there was one I looked at Many years ago it was one of the first I see was 254SG, first 254 vesion before XP. A dealer here got one to test out and I happens to tumble thru the door as it escaped the box. He showed it then, at the time I had no interest in saws what so ever and wanted to get out again as fast as possible...
'87 models 254 had this, at least a few of them. I have seen the insides of probably 30 of them thru the years. When working on these it is important to look at the version/years so you know what it should be and don't order wrong stuff. Many was updated to XP's very fast.
The IPLs show it first in '90-'91 something, same as the plastic air guide (bad idea), last new crank case. the ones before this had no plate to sit on and no reinforced holes in the air guide plate outside flywheel.
The intro of the 262 was in fall 1989.
The info I have is from Husqvarna. The saws are in collections and with customers to see globally, but they could be altered I guess...
I know there was one I looked at Many years ago it was one of the first I see was 254SG, first 254 vesion before XP. A dealer here got one to test out and I happens to tumble thru the door as it escaped the box. He showed it then, at the time I had no interest in saws what so ever and wanted to get out again as fast as possible...
'87 models 254 had this, at least a few of them. I have seen the insides of probably 30 of them thru the years. When working on these it is important to look at the version/years so you know what it should be and don't order wrong stuff. Many was updated to XP's very fast.
The IPLs show it first in '90-'91 something, same as the plastic air guide (bad idea), last new crank case. the ones before this had no plate to sit on and no reinforced holes in the air guide plate outside flywheel.
The intro of the 262 was in fall 1989.
Magnus
TreeHouser
A friend of mine worked for Partner section in 85-95. He told many fine stories of this.
At the time the Jonsered and Partner guy's were getting warm in their new Husqvarna outfits.
They were some what competing over new good ideas and experimented a lot with all kinds of stuff.
At the time the Jonsered and Partner guy's were getting warm in their new Husqvarna outfits.
They were some what competing over new good ideas and experimented a lot with all kinds of stuff.
Ax-Man
Don't make me chop you
The delimbing vids Magnus posted were definately different and interesting to watch . I never seen it done that way. Then again we don't have that many evergreens around here.
The one vid where the two guys were competing against the clock . The tree looked like it had already been delimbed and debarked with dowel rods installed in the stem to represent limbs. Am I right ??? Never seen that before either.
The one vid where the two guys were competing against the clock . The tree looked like it had already been delimbed and debarked with dowel rods installed in the stem to represent limbs. Am I right ??? Never seen that before either.
Magnus
TreeHouser
This is logging competition here. De-limbing trees is a big part of our forestry so it is natural it is a event in loggers competition.
This and felling as well as bore/cut is the main events.
Yes, the limbs are pre set after pattern so it is equal for all.
It takes a bit of practice to get to know your saw, bar, chain different rims to get the most out of it.
Balance and weight is a big factor. Size of competitor as well...
This and felling as well as bore/cut is the main events.
Yes, the limbs are pre set after pattern so it is equal for all.
It takes a bit of practice to get to know your saw, bar, chain different rims to get the most out of it.
Balance and weight is a big factor. Size of competitor as well...
Magnus
TreeHouser
Magnus
TreeHouser
Stig is partly right, Loggers are replaced by harvesters, but a lot is still done here by hand. Machines can't do everything.
It is still a significant part of logging here.
It is still a significant part of logging here.
Magnus
TreeHouser
We have need of good loggers here, Stig. You are probably very welcome!
