"Swimming hole" tree - canker/rust/scale/blight?

[pantheraba]

Nice hinge Gary! Glad it came down safely.

jp

Thanks...I am glad it is down, too. It's nice to show a decent hinge...and even nicer to have the pieces go where you want them to.

 

[CurSedVoyce]

Feels great when it all comes down the way ya plan or cut

 

[wiley_p]

Glad it went well for you Gary.

 

[treelooker]

Nice work, Gary, and nice pics. I tried to see how much rot there was behind the hypoxylon and did not see much. Would be great to cut some cookies at the points where the cankers were largest, to show this for future climbs/climbers.

Did you see any tan dusty patches?

re deadwooding the other trees, is the mgt just going to wait for them to die, or are they going to correct any of their root abuse?

O and that's abigass auger for sampling--could a 1/8" bit gotten you the same data? O and was the sample taken at a random point, or at a canker?

 

[rumination]

Well done, Gary. I'm glad it was still pretty solid.

 

[SkwerI]

Wow. From the way you were describing the tree, I expected the trunk to be nothing but decayed powder. What exactly about the tree made you think it was anything less than solid? I'm glad it went well, but I'm struggling to comprehend why there was so much doubt and anxiety about climbing it.

 

[MasterBlaster]

I was wondering that the entire time, lol.

 

[stehansen]

Did you need any of your ninja skills?

 

[pantheraba]

Well done, Gary. I'm glad it was still pretty solid.

Yah that...it were good.

 

[Frans]

Sometimes if the customer thinks its a big deal I will play up on that to increase my bid- may sound unethical but I am after all in it for the money and there is always a chance of something going wrong which I will have to pay for. So might as well charge accordingly. If it goes well it is just how it plays out. But at least I am covered.
After all, I gotta do this stuff day in and day out, so I am playing the odds...

 

[pantheraba]

Wow. From the way you were describing the tree, I expected the trunk to be nothing but decayed powder. What exactly about the tree made you think it was anything less than solid? I'm glad it went well, but I'm struggling to comprehend why there was so much doubt and anxiety about climbing it.

OK, here's the drill. At first look from a distance, tree is definitely dead. 2nd look up close see black canker patches, bark sloughing off, hollow sound (was caused by area between bark and cambium), anecdotal reports of drainage issues and installation of culvert pipe in last 4-5 years, probable root issues.

You ask “why all the anxiety?” Hahaha...I wasn’t quaking in my boots about having to climb the tree. There was some anxiety but mainly there were questions that just needed answers.

I don’t climb many dead trees. Youse guys that deal with this stuff on a daily basis...it is second nature to you.

Here is the other thing:

Some of you have a LOT of experience to offer to others of us...you make an awesome contribution when you pass along your ideas/methods/cautions about doing tree work...and about tree care (e.g., Guy asks great questions about findings, suggests good tests, makes cogent observations). Your contribution is often your time to pass along your ideas.

Some of us have much more limited experience than others...I figure OUR contribution to the House can be our questions. Sometimes I’ll ask questions to be sure that they get asked...I think some folks probably read threads and either have questions they don’t ask or don’t know to ask them. I certainly don’t know all the questions to ask.

I don’t ask questions just for the heck of it (I don't want to waster anyone's time) but I don’t shy away from it either.

But I really do appreciate getting answers/insights...thanks to all for taking the time to read and respond.

 

[OTGBOSTON]

This has been a great read Gary. I thought to myself the same thing Butch and Brian were thinking but I've been doing this professionally for a long time. I wouldn't have bored the tree or done a root excavation....but I will certainly consider it next time I approach a removal that gets my spidey sense tingling

Your thorough photo documentation make for great threads for all of us to learn from THANKS!

 

[pantheraba]

Nice work, Gary, and nice pics. I tried to see how much rot there was behind the hypoxylon and did not see much. Would be great to cut some cookies at the points where the cankers were largest, to show this for future climbs/climbers.

Your are right, there was not extensive rot..I'll see if I can cut some cookies. I left the wood in 30" sticks for them to haul off...I'll see if I can still access it.

Did you see any tan dusty patches? No dusty patches

re deadwooding the other trees, is the mgt just going to wait for them to die, or are they going to correct any of their root abuse?

I suspect they'll just "go with the flow"...he said that the work I am doing now "wasn't in the budget" but he knew it needed to be done for safety reasons

O and that's abigass auger for sampling--could a 1/8" bit gotten you the same data? O and was the sample taken at a random point, or at a canker?

haha..yep, it's all I had access to...I think I have a 3-4 footer, about 1/4 inch just laying around at work...I'll try to "appropriate" it...good suggestion on size. First drill site was behind a canker area that we could reach...not the largest but within reach. The lower one was random...mainly just checking the base for soundness. There is probably a good scientific method for selecting sample sites but I do not know it.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Guy, for the input.

 

[pantheraba]

This has been a great read Gary. I thought to myself the same thing Butch and Brian were thinking but I've been doing this professionally for a long time. I wouldn't have bored the tree or done a root excavation....but I will certainly consider it next time I approach a removal that gets my spidey sense tingling

Your thorough photo documentation make for great threads for all of us to learn from THANKS!

Thanks, Greg...it may drive some people nutz but it's all good...I sometimes wonder about posting too many picts but different folks focus in on different things so I just post away. When Butch says "ENOUGH ALREADY", then I'll back off a bit.

Here's to your spidey sense:

 

[treelooker]

What exactly about the tree made you think it was anything less than solid?

Brian and Butch must have missed the huge pictures and the written part about the big patches of hypoxylon wood decay fungus. ISA members might recall the Terrible Tar and the Bumpy Blackness, 2 Dendro articles about it.

Housers might recall Blinky's posts about climbing up a tree with black bumps at the base and having the entire thing uproot, bouncing his old bones off a roof and onto the ground, with impact. That event was why Bumpy Blackness was titled thus. If you want to research it, it's aka Ustulina and Kretzschmaeria. So, to review:

Smooth tar canker--early stages, watch it.

Dusty tan canker--reproducing, do not rig before you test it carefully

Black bumps at the base--advanced; do not climb without thorough assessment.

ok?

 

[pantheraba]

Brian and Butch must have missed the huge pictures and the written part about the big patches of hypoxylon. ISA members might recall the Terrible Tar and the Bumpy Blackness, 2 Dendro articles about it.

Housers might recall Blinky's posts about climbing up a tree and having the entire thing uproot, bouncing his old bones off a roof and onto the ground, with impact. That event was why Bumpy Blackness was titled thus. If you want to research it, it's aka Ustulina and Kretzschmaeria. So, to review:

Smooth tar canker--early stages, watch it.

Dusty tan canker--reproducing, do not rig before you test it carefully

Bumpy blackness--advanced; do not climb without thorough assessment.

ok?

Hahaha...yeah, your earlier reference to hypoxylon and Blinky's bouncing bones (37' as I recall) was one of the hints and intimations that I factored into my spidey sense early warning system.

Thanks for the stages of deterioration...I will research Ursula Andress and Kournikova in great depth...oops, you said "Ustulina and Kretzschmaeria"...darn

 

[SkwerI]

Again, I apologize if I offended you, Gary. But IMO a 10-15 second visual inspection should have provided you with enough evidence to make the core drilling and root excavation totally unnecessary. That trunk was so solid that it didn't even break when crashed across that gap when you made the final cut.

And Guy, I live in Florida. I have seen (and climbed) one or two trees with hypoxolin. Just sticking your gaff in a decayed tree will tell you a lot about how far gone it is. The decay starts on the tree surface and works it's way in, so it doesn't take long to figure out how deep the decay goes and how much solid wood you have to work with. Looking at the tips is also a quick and relatively accurate indicator of the extent of decay. With no obvious cracks or cavities and the tree still holding on to the limb tips as well as it was, nothing more than a good visual inspection/ walk around is called for.

Gary, maybe next time you might have a tree with just a tiny bit more decay to justify the extreme lengths you went to in order to determine that it was sound enough to climb up 30' and top it out. I just think it was way over the top on such a solid tree. Perhaps you might want to focus a bit more on your visual assessment skills so you don't have to waste so much time drilling holes? You need to be able to trust your visual assessment skills because once you're 50' up in the tree, other methods may not be available right away. Being able to identify and assess risks in a timely manner is critical for a climber's safety.

 

[MasterBlaster]

 

[PCTREE]

Skwerl I think what you may be forgeting is some folks (unlike you AND I) still enjoy tree work and all its nuances ie actually taking time to consider the posibilities and more so learn from it AND be interested by it.

After 20 years of big wrecks we just kick it and say "git er don". Maybe we lost something along the way......

PS it aint called spearing its called KNIFING

 

[pantheraba]

Skwerl I think what you may be forgetting is some folks (unlike you AND I) still enjoy tree work and all its nuances ie actually taking time to consider the possibilities and more so learn from it AND be interested by it.

After 20 years of big wrecks we just kick it and say "git er don". Maybe we lost something along the way......

PS it aint called spearing its called KNIFING

Paul hit it right on the head...this an AVOCATION for me...I do like the work, hard though it certainly is, and like "actually taking time to consider the possibilities and more so learn from it AND be interested by it."

I kind of relish not having to just "git er done" and learning as I go along...though, Alex gets impatient on the ground sometimes when I try out something that could have probably been done simpler.

I'll practice some things so that I have an idea what might happen when I really have to use that technique for real.

This tree has been a great learning experience for me because folks have been willing to pitch in and offer ideas.

Gary, maybe next time you might have a tree with just a tiny bit more decay to justify the extreme lengths you went to in order to determine that it was sound enough to climb up 30' and top it out. I just think it was way over the top on such a solid tree. Perhaps you might want to focus a bit more on your visual assessment skills so you don't have to waste so much time drilling holes? You need to be able to trust your visual assessment skills because once you're 50' up in the tree, other methods may not be available right away. Being able to identify and assess risks in a timely manner is critical for a climber's safety.

No offense taken, Brian...remember, "it's all good".

"next time you might have a tree with just a tiny bit more decay to justify the extreme lengths you went to in order to determine that it was sound enough to climb up 30' and top it out. I just think it was way over the top on such a solid tree." OK, I really climbed about 50' up but who is counting?

As a result of this thread I am sure that the next time I have a rotten tree to deal with (which should be more often...we had some intense/long drought here) I'll have a better idea of how to approach it and a lesser chance of screwing up. To repost some of what I said earlier that kind of addresses why I "went over the top":

I don’t climb many dead trees. Youse guys that deal with this stuff on a daily basis...it is second nature to you.

Here is the other thing:

Some of you have a LOT of experience to offer to others of us...you make an awesome contribution when you pass along your ideas/methods/cautions about doing tree work...and about tree care (e.g., Guy asks great questions about findings, suggests good tests, makes cogent observations). Your contribution is often your time to pass along your ideas.

Some of us have much more limited experience than others...I figure OUR contribution to the House can be our questions. Sometimes I’ll ask questions to be sure that they get asked...I think some folks probably read threads and either have questions they don’t ask or don’t know to ask them. I certainly don’t know all the questions to ask.

I don’t ask questions just for the heck of it (I don't want to waster anyone's time) but I don’t shy away from it either.

But I really do appreciate getting answers/insights...thanks to all for taking the time to read and respond.

 

[treelooker]

Just sticking your gaff in a decayed tree will tell you a lot about how far gone it is.

/but /brian, shouldn't the climber want to know how far gone it is BEFORE putting the gaffs on?

"The decay starts on the tree surface and works it's way in,"

In an uneven pattern; highly unpredictable.

"Being able to identify and assess risks in a timely manner is critical for a climber's safety."

And going SLOWLY instead of "timely" is essential for working safely through uncertain territory, like hypoxylon infection on a quick-rotting species. Gary gets high marks for thinking things through per need, and also for providing an image of that dripping white bikini in Dr. No. on this hot summer day.

Re Kournikova; she's been supplanted by a new tennis 10, Gisela Dukoc (sp?), who tossed that screeching Sharapova at Wimbledon but lost in the next round.

O yea, this is a tree forum, about smelling the roses and the fungus as we do our work. Hope I die before I get so old and burned out that I see no value in extreme testing. Better to go "way over the top" on preclimb planning than to risk getting bounced to the bottom like Blinky did.

I agree, Butch!

 

[OTGBOSTON]

be careful fellas....he might break out the picture

 

[pantheraba]

be careful fellas....he might break out the picture

aarrggghhhh...not that..I take it all back...you are all a bunch of bucktoothed hillbilly morons.

 

[treelooker]

aarrggghhhh...not that..I take it all back...you are all a bunch of bucktoothed hillbilly morons.

I missed that--is this a James Bond kinda picture or a Dueling Banjoes kinda picture?

 

[pantheraba]

I missed that--is this a James Bond kinda picture or a Dueling Banjoes kinda picture?

Hahaha...Deliverance, I guess. I roller skated once with the banjo playing albino in Deliverance. Some of us happened to go to the local Mountain City roller rink (long story) and, dang, if that ole boy wasn't there.