Starting a tree service.

[ClimbMIT]

This year I lost a lot business that I had already estimated on and the customer says go ahead. Before I could get to them a roving utility line clearance company from our capital city 400 miles away named Kildonan Tree Service Ltd. steals my work by doing it super cheap while they pass through my customers neighborhood. My customers see them near their yard and ask them what they would charge and probably show them my written estimate..

It so happens that Manitoba Hydro who hires them to clear their lines are already paying these crews and then these crews are picking up my jobs as they go and pocket the sideline cash without Manitoba Hydro knowing about it.
It's hard to do business with competition like that. Good thing they only come around here to The Pas every 3-5 years.

If you ever get the chance I would get a picture/video of those guys working on your jobs or even another tree services job. Have a camera with time and date stamp which almost all do these days. Anonymously send it to Manitoba or have a talk with Kildonan's owner. The owner might not know the guys are doing this on his time. If there are taking your work there are likely taking other tree services as well. Just a thought.

 

[HolmenTree]

If you ever get the chance I would get a picture/video of those guys working on your jobs or even another tree services job. Have a camera with time and date stamp which almost all do these days. Anonymously send it to Manitoba or have a talk with Kildonan's owner. The owner might not know the guys are doing this on his time. If there are taking your work there are likely taking other tree services as well. Just a thought.[/QUOTE]
Exactly ,he has employees using his equipment stealing hours on work their doing on the side for their own profit. I did bring it up with the local Manitoba Hydro manager and it raised his eyebrows.... whether anything comes out of this I don't know. I just let it slide.... till next time they come into town.
n

Man that sucks Holmen, seems very unethical to say the least! One suggestion I have is to invest your time and energy going after work that is satisfying to you and makes you want to keep getting up and going to work. Every company has a niche. Find your niche and invest your energy at that niche. Keep your focus of why you do tree work in the foreground so you don't loose your center. Good luck,


jp

Thanks Jon, I think I found my niche long ago, just most times I get a little too over booked when everyone comes at me at once early on in the season. I do love what I do

 

[MasterBlaster]

Who knows... maybe he's getting a kickback from their side jobs.

 

[HolmenTree]

Who knows... maybe he's getting a kickback from their side jobs.

Yeah you never know Butch. I know this tree service owner who probably never leaves the office has a pretty big operation. It never fails to surprise me how some of these big shots will do some pretty cheap things to make a buck.
I have one regular customer who owns 3 Dodge Chrysler dealerships and owns 2 brand new $100,000 [each] Vipors for his own pleasure and the guy whines over the price of a little $300 job at his cottage and wants the treework invoice made out to his dealership's name.

 

[MasterBlaster]

IME, the more affluent a client is, the more they bitch about the bids you offer them. Lawyers are the WORST.

 

[Altissimus]

Joel you are right...many of those customers simply helped me make chipper payments.... as I did get established those people that expected cheap were gladly dropped...plus my expertise and rigging got lots better... I have just a few left from those days...Paid off a brand new Morbark and moved on to bigger and better

 

[treesandsurf]

Holmen that second part was aimed at the original poster, I should have broken up the paragraph!

jp

 

[woodworkingboy]

Seems like loyalty is going down the tubes in some neighborhoods. A good customer from the past and they hire someone cheap passing though town. Bloody shame, Willard.

 

[Mick!]

Thing is with clients (and with people in general) is everyone wants the best deal.
I'd be pissed off if I was Willard, but if a client could save themselves hundreds of euros/dollars/pounds by getting these guys in you can't really blame them. I think accusations of disloyalty are a bit strong, they're clients not family.

 

[Cobleskill]

They did give the go ahead. Do you have them sign on the dotted line?

 

[Mick!]

They did give the go ahead. Do you have them sign on the dotted line?

Over here you should get them to sign a contract although I never bother.
I'm sure we all get clients who cancel,citing some spurious reason, then you drive past a month later and it's been done.
It's an irritant but every now and then it's not worth getting uptight about.
Gotta admit losing a whole raft of work like Willard would grind my gears a bit though.

 

[HolmenTree]

They did give the go ahead. Do you have them sign on the dotted line?

Tom, no I don't have my customers sign my written estimates maybe I should start doing that. The customer who I mentioned was a new customer, but can't prove how many others have gone that route also. When I call a customer that I'll be over to do their job after a long delay past the estimate they tell me the tree is already gone, I just think they did it them selves but when the line clearance guys are in town I get suspicious..

The customer who I mentioned called me on a Wednesday afternoon to go ahead with the job after taking a month to decide . Being out of town at the time I returned their call the next evening. They said don't bother the 2 spruce trees are already gone [$2200 job] I asked if it was another local guy or Kildonan, they said Kildonan.
Now I see why the smaller arb outfits in the big cities are easily pissed with the bigger outfits that they share the market with.

 

[woodworkingboy]

True, people are free to choose who they want to work for them, that is the bottom line. Break it down to "old money" and "new money" and you can see some differences, ways to describe people that were born into having a degree of or lots of affluence, and those folks that were of more common origins and grew their own wealth. I have worked for lots of both cases. i have to think that Butch's "lawyers" might be more from the second category, or lawyers be lawyers, not sure about that. My experience with the first type is that they tend to be much more aware of what they are getting for their money, and who they are giving it to...or maybe it is more like who they want to give it to. They have some sense about the better things, they've been around. It can be surprisingly easy to become friends with someone that owns their own jet, by working for them. They appreciate people that aren't more sniffing out their dough, call it their loyalty or having confidence in the service that is being provided, the relationship likely goes on, with no need to further shop around. Stig and some other folks here have that going on. People looking for deals as their modus operandi, is a different mind set. I like the kind that really know the value of money by having a lot of it as nothing particularly special, more so the ones that will tell you that you should be asking more when you tell them the costs. It can tell you how it really should be if you are honest and do good work. Not everybody can be rich, but the kindly and honorable spenders that are thankful for what you do for them, set a good example.

 

[squisher]

I lose work to the clearance guys now and then like Willard described. I don't sweat it none. I figured it happened everywhere?

 

[Mick!]

True, people are free to choose who they want to work for them, that is the bottom line. Break it down to "old money" and "new money" and you can see some differences, ways to describe people that were born into having a degree of or lots of affluence, and those folks that were of more common origins and grew their own wealth. I have worked for lots of both cases. i have to think that Butch's "lawyers" might be more from the second category, or lawyers be lawyers, not sure about that. My experience with the first type is that they tend to be much more aware of what they are getting for their money, and who they are giving it to...or maybe it is more like who they want to give it to. They have some sense about the better things, they've been around. It can be surprisingly easy to become friends with someone that owns their own jet, by working for them. They appreciate people that aren't more sniffing out their dough, call it their loyalty or having confidence in the service that is being provided, the relationship likely goes on, with no need to further shop around. Stig and some other folks here have that going on. People looking for deals as their modus operandi, is a different mind set. I like the kind that really know the value of money by having a lot of it as nothing particularly special, more so the ones that will tell you that you should be asking more when you tell them the costs. It can tell you how it really should be if you are honest and do good work. Not everybody can be rich, but the kindly and honorable spenders that are thankful for what you do for them, set a good example.

I don't think you can generalise about people in that way. Some people are just jerks, rich, poor, old money, new money.
I'm not sure that being "thankful" is what I am after with my clients or indeed that they set "a good example"
It's a business transaction, of course pleasant people are better to deal with but money is money.
If anything I'm the one offering thanks as they pass me the cheque. We go through the ritual of thanking each other but in the end they chose me, not the other way round.

 

[HolmenTree]

I think the insurance companies are the most generous ha ..........reason I said that was a couple of days ago I got a check in the mail for $1,530.50 from an insurance company that I bidded for with an estimate on a arson claim job last summer.
It appears the contractor who removed the burnt house also removed the trees and stumps for the same insurance company but didn't itemize the trees in the removal.

When I phoned the insurance adjusters office about their mistake they went and said "please send the check back!"
I never even got a thank you from them, I should have kept the check

 

[jefflovstrom@sb]

Stig, actually my unit would work quite fine on your small streets. My pickup truck and trailer unit is only 6 foot and 6 inch wide. Total length is approximate 40 feet long. But I have moved my trailer unit into tight yards with just my Muck Truck power barrow. I just pull 1 pin and the barrow's skip comes off exposing a 2 5/16" trailer ball. The barrow is rated for up to 10,000 lb trailers.

That looks like some serious tongue weight.

 

[HolmenTree]

That looks like some serious tongue weight.

900 LBS with the 300lb Muck Truck barrow sitting on the tongue. Class IV hitch , trailer fully loaded still under 10,000LBS.
Furthest I have to haul a full load to the local landfills on the average is a mile.
Firestone airbags on the Dodge diesel pickup with only 30 LBS air in them. I get over 3 years with my 10 ply Michelins with only one rotation. Have been pulling this trailer for close to 10 years now and never had a problem, BTW first started out with a '92 Ford 1/2 ton.

 

[SouthSoundTree]

Tom, no I don't have my customers sign my written estimates maybe I should start doing that.

FWIW, my one page estimate/ bid sheet is also my contract. I have letterhead with website, place for their info, then SSTL proposes XXXX for $XXXX.


It has a place for Acceptance of Proposal, I'm adding a spot for Partial payment to reserve a space in line and payments along the way, then a spot for name, signature, date for HO to Accept as Satisfactorily Completed, including Final Clean-up. (I forget my wording). I hope that this will give some protection from the person who might have a branch come down at some later time which they trip over, or the like, and try to sue. I'm not picturing the HO, but a joe-shmow broke person from the street.


I don't frequently take a deposit, but might try to do it. I've had two total non-payments (small jobs) this last year. I have to legally carry a bond which will cover the HOs if I default.

I figure that I don't have to push the deposit if the client bawks, or I can walk.

 

[HolmenTree]

Sounds like a good plan Sean. I need to make a few changes to my estimate forms which I show here with the customer in question that went with the line clearance guys. She still has her stumps in the ground though , just waiting for her call to remove them, ha.
As I mentioned $2200 earlier with a hopeful mind as it shows here it's $2007.
Any advice how I can change my estimate form would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Pelorus]

I have only rarely ever accepted either a deposit or any payment before job completion, unless it is a post dated cheque.
Getting stiffed by a customer is a pretty rare event up here.
Holden's quotation sheet and wording appear very similar to what I use.

 

[HolmenTree]

I have only rarely ever accepted either a deposit or any payment before job completion, unless it is a post dated cheque.
Getting stiffed by a customer is a pretty rare event up here.
Holden's quotation sheet and wording appear very similar to what I use.

Same here Pelorus, the way I see it if someone is willing to spend money on a tree they are good to go with the payment.
I only had one customer over all these years who I had to take to small claims court, and the lady coughed up the $900 a day before court.

I can see the ones coming who would be slow to pay so I ask for payment up front which has worked very good for me , the worst case scenario is I get a whole bunch of $100 post dated checks or they decline the job all together, the latter happens very rarely.

 

[jalegre0]

insurance check

I think the insurance companies are the most generous ha ..........reason I said that was a couple of days ago I got a check in the mail for $1,530.50 from an insurance company that I bidded for with an estimate on a arson claim job last summer.
It appears the contractor who removed the burnt house also removed the trees and stumps for the same insurance company but didn't itemize the trees in the removal.

When I phoned the insurance adjusters office about their mistake they went and said "please send the check back!"
I never even got a thank you from them, I should have kept the check

That same scenario happened to me but reversed. I did the tree work builder got paid for it took them 5months to resolve, $2400. Just so happened builder kept check, spent all money, didn't get paid till certified letters went out

 

[SouthSoundTree]

On some jobs, I've had HO ask about putting down money, as though they expected to pay something up front. I do have the option of waiting to cash any check. Sometimes jobs might be where we can do a days' work, then its too stormy to get back to the job for period of time, maybe a week or two, perhaps. In any case, I would rather have a check that I can wait to cash, rather than waiting to get a check than I can cash. Waiting for a check to come in the mail that is written wrong, then has to go back and forth is a drag.

Lost a job to a cheaper service as we were waiting on him to get approval from the HOA, after agreeing to the price. Had he put up a check and signed on the dotted line, he probably wouldn't have kept shopping. Had he not agreed and shaken hands on the deal, it would have been different. I'd started planning/ scheduling that job with another one in that distant part of the county. Now, that was (minor) wasted energy and planning. Ultimately...oh well, move on.

 

[Mick!]

I often get asked if I want something up front (always by my French clients) I always turn them down because I don't need to buy anything up front, different for builders and the like who have to buy materials. Plus the fact that they haven't given you anything gives one more freedom for moving work about.
Been stiffed a couple of times for money, on both occasions I blamed myself, I was short of work and ignored my "spidey sense" which told me something was wrong.