J
Jonseredbred
Guest
That is an incredibly dumb and dangerous statement.
N
NewClimber
Guest
The guys I work for will not even let me sit in the bucket until I prove I can climb well enough to not drop anything on (insert your noun here). I also must learn all the tag line knots and how to position myself most effectively. my.02
lumberjack
Young man on the go
It makes sense to me, takes 2-3 months to train an effective bucketeer, 2-3 years for a climber.
J
Jonseredbred
Guest
Are you even serious?, the learning curve on a bucket is not that short. Equipment does not replace training and experience.
I would not call anyone an experienced tree cutter (climbing or in the bucket) unless they had at least 3 yrs. of full time experience.
lumberjack
Young man on the go
Am I serious? Yes.
Take a good groundy, or someone with good common sense (equally rare) stick them in a bucket with an experienced person... in 3 months they should have the idea down fairly well. Didn't say experienced, said effective.
By your definition I am inexperienced for another couple of years.
Take a good groundy, or someone with good common sense (equally rare) stick them in a bucket with an experienced person... in 3 months they should have the idea down fairly well. Didn't say experienced, said effective.
By your definition I am inexperienced for another couple of years.
J
Jonseredbred
Guest
I have never seen a good bucket man that was not a climber.
what is "effective"? getting a tree on the ground in a pile by the skin of your ass?
I know by your posts that you have alot of smarts, maybe you could be proficient in 3 months but you would also be a rarity.
I disagree to the blatent generalization that if you buy a spider lift (or any of the like) that it will allow you to become quickly experienced.
Peaple who believe that are the cause of why liability and workers comp rates are out of control.
what is "effective"? getting a tree on the ground in a pile by the skin of your ass?
I know by your posts that you have alot of smarts, maybe you could be proficient in 3 months but you would also be a rarity.
I disagree to the blatent generalization that if you buy a spider lift (or any of the like) that it will allow you to become quickly experienced.
Peaple who believe that are the cause of why liability and workers comp rates are out of control.
3
395xp
Guest
I have to agree with jonseredbred on this. I think most climbers aren't up to snuff til 5 years on a rope. You can have all the equipment in the world but experience is priceless.
Carl
While you make some intelligent posts, i think you are inexperienced. That is not a bad thing, it just comes with time.
Carl
While you make some intelligent posts, i think you are inexperienced. That is not a bad thing, it just comes with time.
sotc
Dormant hero!!
well ken figured out what i was talking bout with the cribbing, and it has been explained so ill not say any more on that.
jonesred, i think the idea here is that you can get less experienced people to take down simple removals with learning how to climb. and i do think some one that has never climbed can learn to be an excellent pruner and or removalperson
jonesred, i think the idea here is that you can get less experienced people to take down simple removals with learning how to climb. and i do think some one that has never climbed can learn to be an excellent pruner and or removalperson
SkwerI
Treehouser
Yes, there are two (or three) distinct areas of expertise required to make a well rounded treeman. First is the climbing ability/ maneuverability in the tree. You gotta get up there in order to do your job. A lift accomplishes this without any special skills.
Second is knowing WTF you are supposed to do once you're up there. Tree biology, understanding how trees react to different types of pruning, the mechanics of how different types of wood hinge and how you can manipulate cuts to fall where you like, as well as how the tree will react in one, two or five years.
Third (and just as important as the first two IMO) is being able to tune, sharpen and maintain your saws. A crappy running, dull saw will cripple the best treemen and many times your well being depends on making a cut in a timely manner, not to mention the reduced scarring on the tree.
A lift gets you up in the tree. But without the knowledge of what to do and the skill to do it, you're not yet a treeman. Just a guy in a lift in a tree.
Second is knowing WTF you are supposed to do once you're up there. Tree biology, understanding how trees react to different types of pruning, the mechanics of how different types of wood hinge and how you can manipulate cuts to fall where you like, as well as how the tree will react in one, two or five years.
Third (and just as important as the first two IMO) is being able to tune, sharpen and maintain your saws. A crappy running, dull saw will cripple the best treemen and many times your well being depends on making a cut in a timely manner, not to mention the reduced scarring on the tree.
A lift gets you up in the tree. But without the knowledge of what to do and the skill to do it, you're not yet a treeman. Just a guy in a lift in a tree.
J
Jonseredbred
Guest
yes, someone can learn, I do not dispute that.
I do not beleive that a specific piece of equipment(as spider lift advertises) can make a untrained person an expert tree worker.
treetx
Traveler extraordinaire
It is the truth mate. Just because you don't agree doesn't change it from being true
You may not believe in gravity, but you will still hit the ground when you fall out of that bucket.A good groundy can be turned into a good bucket flyer in a few days. That is a fact. I have done it.
Flying a lift is not rocket science. It is a quick way to get through some work. Don't make it what it is not.
sotc
Dormant hero!!
J
Jonseredbred
Guest
I will simply disagree.
Maybe there is a difference in what we respectively define a "good treeman" as, or possibly tree work alltogether.
Can I put an experienced groundman in a bucket and let him smash down a tree in a back lawn? probably.
Can I put an experienced groundman in a bucket and put him up in high voltage lines and perform a technical takedown. NOT A SHOT IN HELL.
and that my friend is what I am referring to, I might be doing a whole different kind of work than some here.
Maybe there is a difference in what we respectively define a "good treeman" as, or possibly tree work alltogether.
Can I put an experienced groundman in a bucket and let him smash down a tree in a back lawn? probably.
Can I put an experienced groundman in a bucket and put him up in high voltage lines and perform a technical takedown. NOT A SHOT IN HELL.
and that my friend is what I am referring to, I might be doing a whole different kind of work than some here.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
I can understand Nathan's point.
J
Jonseredbred
Guest
who's nathan?
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
TreeTX.
treetx
Traveler extraordinaire
I am referring to tree care, not powerline care.
I think we are not so apart in our thinking. Can a bucket make a groundy a treeman....NO! But on large contract deadwooding, yes, you can get a good groundy pretty efficient and fast. That leaves your climber to climb while your lift is earning its oats. Not a brush dragger, I mean a groundy who knows his way around a saw.
Tree care can be technical, but lets face it, a lot of it is cleaning up or bashing out 30-50 ft trees.
J
Jonseredbred
Guest
he does have a point, I just think we are thinking about 2 totally different types of work. And I do not do powerline trimming.
My bitch is not with any of the member's here it's with the manufacturers of products like these trying to mainstream a product into a industry that it was not initially designed for.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
That's my guess.
J
Jonseredbred
Guest
sure its an adaptation of a manlift.
Al Smith
Mac Daddy
Perhaps but they would be way too slow.On the Genie,JLG types you just run and rise,no outriggers needed unless on those 80 to 100 foot rigs which are not used that much.
lumberjack
Young man on the go
Even 80-120' JLG's are outriggerless and driveable anywhere in their operating envelope.
Even the 150' HMAX JLG is outriggerless.
Nifty lift has a unit that has outriggers, its been the only one I have seen. I think outriggers would be handy on setup, getting them level is a pain!
Here we are trying to level a 120' JLG. I am running the controls, Daniel is adding plywood as cribbing. We ended up having to move the lift forward (the top of the tree was just out of the envelope) and stick a equipment trailer ramp under the tire on top of the plywood. The ramp was totalled from the weight. 43k lbs, 26k max on a tire.
Even the 150' HMAX JLG is outriggerless.
Nifty lift has a unit that has outriggers, its been the only one I have seen. I think outriggers would be handy on setup, getting them level is a pain!
Here we are trying to level a 120' JLG. I am running the controls, Daniel is adding plywood as cribbing. We ended up having to move the lift forward (the top of the tree was just out of the envelope) and stick a equipment trailer ramp under the tire on top of the plywood. The ramp was totalled from the weight. 43k lbs, 26k max on a tire.
J
Jonseredbred
Guest
My problem with spider lift
Here it is guys...........straight out.
This is from spiderlifts ad in this month's TCI magazine.
Train Employee's Faster: Instead of two or three years of training to become a skilled tree climber, a ground man can now learn to use a spiderlift in minutes, and become an expert tree worker in three to four weeks.
That is the the most irresponsible advertising I have seen in a long time.
These lifts are marketed towards unsuspecting and inexperienced buyers promising them and I quote " Instant edge: Allows landscapers to instantly add profitable tree services................"
And further it is my opinion that marketing a lift (to be used in tree work) without at least electrical insulation for the operator is complete insanity.
Most tree guys know not to get something like this near any conductor, but when you are blatently marketing to inexperienced buyers are we sure they know not to??
Mark my words, these will be a blight on our industry and insurance rates in the years to come.
Here it is guys...........straight out.
This is from spiderlifts ad in this month's TCI magazine.
Train Employee's Faster: Instead of two or three years of training to become a skilled tree climber, a ground man can now learn to use a spiderlift in minutes, and become an expert tree worker in three to four weeks.
That is the the most irresponsible advertising I have seen in a long time.
These lifts are marketed towards unsuspecting and inexperienced buyers promising them and I quote " Instant edge: Allows landscapers to instantly add profitable tree services................"
And further it is my opinion that marketing a lift (to be used in tree work) without at least electrical insulation for the operator is complete insanity.
Most tree guys know not to get something like this near any conductor, but when you are blatently marketing to inexperienced buyers are we sure they know not to??
Mark my words, these will be a blight on our industry and insurance rates in the years to come.
