Sharpening: part 2, square chisel chain.

Oh ,it's faster allright,no doubt about that . The short side is the fact takes longer .

For me at least a 20" loop of round takes about 5 minutes to touch up while still on the saw . The same in square is 20 minutes in a vice .

From what I gather most west coast fallers just carry extra loops with them .

I suppose perhaps a good filer could resharpen square on the saw faster but I have as yet to get to that point .
 
You are correct, most fallers have a few extra loops and just sawp out during the day. When they get back to camp they run the grinder back to razor sharp
 
Wow...I was all set to order up a couple, but $200 is more than I can justify, by a good bit. Too bad, I was really looking forward to this being available.
 
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  • #107
That's cool. And yes, they do seem proud of them. Glad I can freehand sharpen.:/:
 
That wasn't the one I saw over at another members house a few weeks ago and it certainly wasn't 200 bucks either . I'm thinkin around 50 or so .It had the guides kind of like that one though .

Let me look though my pictures .I think I have how to hold the angle of the dangle some where on that mess when I did those race chains .
 
I don't know if this will help anybody or not but here goes .

You want to aim the corner of the bevel file where the small side meets the wide side of the file directly into the working corner of the chain .For those who don't know that term it is where the top plate and side plate meet . You cut both at the same time with a slight down angle on the file . I'd have to measure it to be sure of that angle ,can't remember .

You want the side plate to be nearly at 90 degrees believe it or not which seems odd when compairing it to round ground . Not too much "beak " because that hinders the chains cutting ability and causes it to grab .

If you do beak out a chain just run accross it with a flat file then reprofile it .

I might add that the chain in the picture is not my best .After I took those pics and did several others I refiled this one .
 

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I have the Oregon grinder and I don't use it anymore. Since learning how to sharpen by hand from yous guys I can do better than the machine.
 
Just have to be careful with it ... Its just to straighten out some severely rocked chain.. I can do it with a file... But grinding saves me time on the bad stuff we have from brushing. Most chains I file anyway.
 
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  • #115
I've been running some square chain again thanks to Skwerl hooking me up with a couple of loops. The first go around with the file, I was worried I'd lost it, but the second time everything clicked and the cutters are coming out great. I ordered some Save Edge files from Bailey's, and they seem to be of good quality. I had a loop of square that had been heavily abused and I was able to, after five sharpenings, get it back in shape. I'm still using the same file, even after hacking my way through the rolled over chrome on the cutter. Square chain almost makes blocking up firewood fun.:lol:
 
Glad you're taking advantage of it, Dave. I tried but never could get the performance out of square filed chain that was promised. Every single time I could hit the teeth with three strokes of a round file and it would cut faster. My latest two rolls are round ground chisel so I don't have to mess with them as much before using them.
 
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  • #117
I find it is very finicky. Either the cutters are well formed, and it's amazing, or they are a little off and it's the same, or even a little slower than round filed. When I first put the 20" loop on the 394 that had been rocked, even though I had sharpened it, I was unimpressed. I could just barely out cut the 372/round filed in smaller wood. Once I got it filed up right, the 394 regained the lead by a nice margin. I've been playing with the square stuff since '97. I don't need to run it, but I like the challenge. I never really got the hang of it until the last flare up of squarechainitis, which is when I started this thread.

Also, I cut quite a bit of white oak last week with the loop I got from you, and it held up really well. I wasn't sure what to expect in such a hard wood.
 
Dave: Really good to hear of someone else messing with this bedeviled stuff. I'm obsessed with it, and probably half-insane with obsessive-compulsive disorder, otherwise, I'd probably just round-file it all.

I really do believe that one does have to be just about crazy to become even adequate at sharpening the stuff--there are so many variables.

The reason that the double-bevel or triangle file cuts faster than the round file really has to do (I believe) more with chip-flow through the cutter than it has to do with a better cutting edge. Because the double-bev removes more material longitudinally (will you ever understand what I mean?) through the chisel, it enables the chisels to exit more wood-chip material than does the round-grind, thereby expediting the overall cutting process. (At least--that's what I've come to believe.)

The bedevilment first comes in when you realize that you could cut a lot straighter with the round-chain--despite the claims of the proponents of square-grind--than you can with the double-bevel filed chain. And of course the reason is obvious: at least in my case, it's extremely difficult to get all the side-plate and top plate angles consistent enough on both the right-facing and the left-facing chisels to result in really straight cutting.

Already, you understand how insane I am to take the effort to respond with this long of a post at all, so I guess, as far as my already nearly worthless reputation is concerned, I really don't have to much to lose, so here goes...

I'll start with the various phases I've gone through in my sharpening of the stuff:

Phase one: Cuss. Curse. Swear, then resume cussing. Finally resort to filing from the inside out again like you would with a round file, and got barely tolerable angles.

Phase two: Manually learned how to actually remove the material correctly. (By filing from the outside in. This resulted in many a--very expensive--file being ruined or compromised from busting off the incredibly hard and brittle file "teeth"/grooves. Finally learned a few tricks like actually loosening the chain up on the bar so as to be able to "rock-back" the chisel with the manual force of the file. (This actually facilitates the removal of the steel off of the cutters) All during this phase I never worried too much about getting the saw to cut straight, because I just wanted to get greedier and greedier with my experimentation with the acuteness of the angle on the top plate so as to produce faster and faster cutting.

Phase three: Realized that phase two results in VERY prematurely dull chain, and nasty curving in bigger bucking cuts, so I determined to try to learn to file as if I were an electric grinder. This is the phase I'm still in, and may not master till I die. Here's the thing: The darned file actually cuts different depending on whether you're doing the left or right hand cutters. If you don't believe me, study the angles of the "teeth" on the file. You'll soon realize that the angles at which the teeth remove material from the chisels is completely different depending on whether you're doing the lefts or the rights. This actually alters the way that the file cuts, and you have to adjust your manual technique accordingly. There's actually--if you can believe this--a lot more that I could tell you about different little phases that I entered in between these three, based on little alterations of filing techniques that I stumbled onto here and there (like tightening the chain up on the bar instead of loosening it, and then sliding a felling wedge between the bar and chain to render it even tighter) but, honestly, even if I were crazy enough--and I could: don't tempt me!--to elaborate on all of it, I'm at least sane enough to realize that absolutely no one would read it.

so...... If I could glean all of this madness down to two bits of advice, they are these:

1) Always clean out the gullets with a round file instead of trying to remove a lot of material from underneath with the double-bevel.

2) Always just barley scrape the tie-strap with the downward (material removing) stroke of the file. This acts like a functioning file gauge for at least one of the three relative angles. If you can eyeball the top-plate angle, than that only leaves one more (the side plate) angle unaccounted for. This--if I could only do it--is, I believe only mastered by the pure muscle-memory "feel" of the dexterity in your hands.

Granted: I'm a HUGE wood-cutting nerd, but, I'm going to say that when you nail all three of these angles perfectly, the pleasure derived from the straightness and aggressive efficiency of the cutting is only exceeded by a few other things in this life.

Best of luck and happy cutting.
 
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  • #119
I'm not sure I understand the outside in filing. I file just like a round filed chain, from behind the chrome. I can file just as fast as round now. I think it's the muscle memory, like you have mentioned. I think being ambidextrous really helps as well. One thing I found I was doing in the beginning was to unintentionally file the top plate parallel to the witness mark on the chain, which is different for square chain.

A couple of Madsen's links on square:

http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_cb_angles.htm

http://www.madsens1.com/bnc_filing_cb.htm
 
Dave, on the chain I sent you the top witness mark is at 20 degrees instead of 35, it is marked for square filing.
 
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  • #121
Interesting. Maybe it was the Oregon square that I had that shared the same cutter as round filed.
 
Dave: Thanks very much for the links. I'll need to read them thoroughly when I've got some time. Man, I must have been in a weird mood when I composed that thesis of a post! Sometimes I just get the itch to ramble--came off like kind of a know-it-all too, which I regret. Hope you didn't read all that.

I've definitely got tons more to learn about it, it's just that It's so fun to experiment, that I get bogged down. (By never sticking to one thing and settling down into a consistent technique.) So I'll definitely read the Madsen's links since those guys are always super knowledgeable, and I'll let you know how I progress.
 
Dave: Thanks very much for the links. I'll need to read them thoroughly when I've got some time. Man, I must have been in a weird mood when I composed that thesis of a post! Sometimes I just get the itch to ramble--came off like kind of a know-it-all too, which I regret. Hope you didn't read all that.

I've definitely got tons more to learn about it, it's just that It's so fun to experiment, that I get bogged down. (By never sticking to one thing and settling down into a consistent technique.) So I'll definitely read the Madsen's links since those guys are always super knowledgeable, and I'll let you know how I progress.
 
I actually have a atop if anyone wants to try it out and send it back. I use round file now with a husky roller guide works good , and if u use a "fine round file" to finish it with it cuts pretty darn fast. Even in hard wood.
 
Thought I would bump this thread as I have just ordered my first square ground chain. It is the only skip chain I can buy here in the Uk so I thought I would give it a try :)
 
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