Dave Shepard
Square peg, round world.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #26
I get it now, I had to reread Wiley P's post.
Sharpening: part 2, square chisel chain.
- Thread starter Dave Shepard
- Start date
- Replies 203
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Weell I had to reread things too and remember which Dave I was addressing when.
Dave (Wylie P.) I was teasing you but I don't doubt your veracity. Undoubtably you can't squarefile to save your grandmother.
Dave Shepherd, You are the MAN! SuperDave should take filing lessons from YOU.
Dave (Wylie P.) I was teasing you but I don't doubt your veracity. Undoubtably you can't squarefile to save your grandmother.
Dave Shepherd, You are the MAN! SuperDave should take filing lessons from YOU.
Dave Shepard
Square peg, round world.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #28
Maybe I should change my name, then I might know who you're talking about.
S
Swe#kipp
Guest
Here is a new guide for square ground filing that I have been testing for a week now it's very easy to use and gives a very sharp and smooth cutting chain it will soon be available on the US/CAN market if you like square ground but don't can justify a grinder this Guide might be a good substitute 
(www.atop.se)
(www.atop.se)
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Ax-Man
Don't make me chop you
I have tried square filing also. I may have given up on it prematurely after reading this thread.
The tip given to file opposite of the way round filing is done never accured to me even though I have heard and seen filing a chain in this way. I tried this filing method with the files I had bought from Bailey's a few years ago. Much easier than before. Like RB I think I also may have the wrong kind of files. Especially after seeing the recent pictures. The only reference I have had prior to this has been Jerry's Fundamental's book showing square filing.
Now for the big question.
Does square filing make that much of a difference????
My square filing needs to be improved upon but I know I am close to the way it should be done and really haven't seen that big of a difference between filing chisel chain using a round file or with a beveled file. I gave up on the square filing as sooner or later you have to clean the gullet with a round file. I felt this just wasn't worth the extra filing that would come down the road after a few sharpenings with the beveled file.
I asked the first big question now for the second question.
Is there any advantage to square filing for hardwoods. Now for the purpose of disscussion let's draw the line like the timber companies do and say that softwoods are evergreen trees and decidious trees are hardwoods. I can see that for softwood cutting the square filed tooth would cut faster, but how about in hardwoods???
Even with today's newly gained tips applied which made filing easier and a more aggressive looking tooth. I still didn't think I gained anything as far as speed in cutting a big oak round with my 076 with it's RS chain. It was very smooth cutting and the chips in the sawdust were pretty uniform.
The tip given to file opposite of the way round filing is done never accured to me even though I have heard and seen filing a chain in this way. I tried this filing method with the files I had bought from Bailey's a few years ago. Much easier than before. Like RB I think I also may have the wrong kind of files. Especially after seeing the recent pictures. The only reference I have had prior to this has been Jerry's Fundamental's book showing square filing.
Now for the big question.
Does square filing make that much of a difference????
My square filing needs to be improved upon but I know I am close to the way it should be done and really haven't seen that big of a difference between filing chisel chain using a round file or with a beveled file. I gave up on the square filing as sooner or later you have to clean the gullet with a round file. I felt this just wasn't worth the extra filing that would come down the road after a few sharpenings with the beveled file.
I asked the first big question now for the second question.
Is there any advantage to square filing for hardwoods. Now for the purpose of disscussion let's draw the line like the timber companies do and say that softwoods are evergreen trees and decidious trees are hardwoods. I can see that for softwood cutting the square filed tooth would cut faster, but how about in hardwoods???
Even with today's newly gained tips applied which made filing easier and a more aggressive looking tooth. I still didn't think I gained anything as far as speed in cutting a big oak round with my 076 with it's RS chain. It was very smooth cutting and the chips in the sawdust were pretty uniform.
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
I got a square chain with my 036 that I traded out for. Thing went through dry oak like butter. I won't use them though as round chisel is easier to dress up when working in the brush. They don't sharpen them either in the chain saw shops we have here. So ....
But they are pretty impressive on their cutting ability and speed.
I don't think they dull as fast either. Did not seem to .
But they are pretty impressive on their cutting ability and speed.
I don't think they dull as fast either. Did not seem to .
SkwerI
Treehouser
Larry,
In my limited experience, the square filed chain is about 5%-10% faster. This is comparing off-the-roll and 1-2 sharpenings of Stihl 33RS versus Stihl 33RSLK. After more than a couple sharpenings, my square filing begins to suffer and I just round file it. I can take square filed to round filed in about 4-5 swipes per tooth.
So what I've been doing is practicing my square filing on new chains until I either rock them out or screw up the angles. When they start cutting funky on me I just round file them rather than spending a lot of time on them with a square file. I'm looking forward to the day when I square file a chain all the way to the end of the tooth.
kipp, that guide looks very interesting. I'd be interested in purchasing one when they are available here. Please keep us updated.
In my limited experience, the square filed chain is about 5%-10% faster. This is comparing off-the-roll and 1-2 sharpenings of Stihl 33RS versus Stihl 33RSLK. After more than a couple sharpenings, my square filing begins to suffer and I just round file it. I can take square filed to round filed in about 4-5 swipes per tooth.
So what I've been doing is practicing my square filing on new chains until I either rock them out or screw up the angles. When they start cutting funky on me I just round file them rather than spending a lot of time on them with a square file. I'm looking forward to the day when I square file a chain all the way to the end of the tooth.
kipp, that guide looks very interesting. I'd be interested in purchasing one when they are available here. Please keep us updated.
Ax-Man
Don't make me chop you
Brian, that 5-10 % gain is realistic. I feel I am getting that. Maybe I am being over realistic in what to gain from square filing. When I first squared filed I thought to myself "Oh Boy this baby is going to do some cutting now". I had visions of one of those hot saws going through a softwood log. Well maybe not quite that fast but I was sure hoping it would.
Dave Shepard
Square peg, round world.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #34
I've cut a lot of firewood with the square ground chisel, it definitely made a difference, but only in clean wood. My stock 394xp and 18" red maple rounds, it sure felt like a hot saw to me.
My stock 394xp and 18" red maple rounds, it sure felt like a hot saw to me.
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
I know my 28 bar cuts fast with the square compared to the round chisel... 066 or 036. It is faster. You can hear it in the motor too.
Dave Shepard
Square peg, round world.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #36
I cut about 8mbf of white pine back in September with my 036 running square ground chain. Most trees were 18" to 24" dbh. It made it a nice saw for both felling and limbing. Runs pretty close to my Husky 66, although I do have square chain for that as well.
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
036 was my best move for a trade out period.. That saw rocks in a tree.. Light and cuts like a raped ape.
Ax-Man
Don't make me chop you
I might get into this square filing a little more. I redid the other day's filing that was done on the back of a truck and did it on the bench with a vise. Big difference and easier.
Did some test cuts in a Elm log which isn't as hard as the Oak. I was quite pleased with how fast the chain cut for the amount of time spent. Plus the improved performance and chip size than the other day.
The emphasis seems to line up the bevel of the file with the working corner with a very acute down angle like RB has mentioned to get the 3 cutting angles in the tooth.
One thing I have noticed in doing this filing is my outside top plate angle degrades and gets out of whack on some teeth.
Is this normal??? I then have to straighten the tooth out with a round file, then refile and then the tooth looks good again.
I swiped a few pics from Madsen's site to go along with the thread and pic of my work and the double bevel I am using and a one of a kind pic of the chips from the last test cutting. I know the pic of my filing isn't the greatest but it is the best one I could get using my camera. It is hard to get a good pic of a chainsaw tooth.
Anyone happen to know the angle of the file in the second pic??
I have come to the conclusion that you can't try to square file and conform the tooth to round filed tooth specs and the looks of a round filed tooth. I think this was a big stumbling block I had to get past.
Just looking for a few comments and maybe some pointers. Am I close to doing this right ??? How about the file??? It is one from Baileys. Brian linked it earlier in the thread. Flat file with the edges bouble beveled.
Did some test cuts in a Elm log which isn't as hard as the Oak. I was quite pleased with how fast the chain cut for the amount of time spent. Plus the improved performance and chip size than the other day.
The emphasis seems to line up the bevel of the file with the working corner with a very acute down angle like RB has mentioned to get the 3 cutting angles in the tooth.
One thing I have noticed in doing this filing is my outside top plate angle degrades and gets out of whack on some teeth.
Is this normal??? I then have to straighten the tooth out with a round file, then refile and then the tooth looks good again.
I swiped a few pics from Madsen's site to go along with the thread and pic of my work and the double bevel I am using and a one of a kind pic of the chips from the last test cutting. I know the pic of my filing isn't the greatest but it is the best one I could get using my camera. It is hard to get a good pic of a chainsaw tooth.
Anyone happen to know the angle of the file in the second pic??
I have come to the conclusion that you can't try to square file and conform the tooth to round filed tooth specs and the looks of a round filed tooth. I think this was a big stumbling block I had to get past.
Just looking for a few comments and maybe some pointers. Am I close to doing this right ??? How about the file??? It is one from Baileys. Brian linked it earlier in the thread. Flat file with the edges bouble beveled.
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SkwerI
Treehouser
Larry, that looks way off. The top plate angle and side plate angle should meet at the leading corner of the tooth. It looks like yours is a quarter inch too low.
Here's a closeup I saved from AS years ago. I think gypologger posted it
edit: Actually, Swe#kipp's pictures above are much better and clearer. I also have a PDF file on square filing that I'll send you if you'd like to read it.
Here's a closeup I saved from AS years ago. I think gypologger posted it
edit: Actually, Swe#kipp's pictures above are much better and clearer. I also have a PDF file on square filing that I'll send you if you'd like to read it.
arborworks1
Treehouser
What is the procedure for sharpening square ground with a grinder. Is it setup differently than round filed chain? Or is there a special grinder?
T
Tzed250
Guest
A special grinder is needed to do square.
I use a Coddington magnifier when I sharpen square to be able to see the corner well.
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Ax-Man
Don't make me chop you
That is why I am asking if I have the right file for doing this. The file I have is the same as in those pics from Madsens and I was filing the same as the pics showed.
Earlier in the thread Swe#kipp showed a different file. I can see that with his file it is easier to get the side plate to lineup to the working corner. With the file I am using I can't get that nice downward angle in the side plate and make it look as good as his does. He is also using a bar guide but it looks like it can be done with just a hand file.
Off or not it sure does cut but maybe I am only getting the same results as a round filed chisel chain. It sure feels like I am getting more out of the chain.
I don't how much stock to put into Gypologger statements but that pic looks like a butched up machined sharpened tooth. I see many a saw that look like that from being machined sharpened. Even the Chainsaw Repair manuel says that when machine sharpening a tooth to just do the top plate and don't even mention or do the side plate. I even have a stand - up grinder and can do a tooth with it almost as good as hand filed. Something isn't right here from where I sit.
I am not trying to start a war here because I am a little out of my element on this square tooth filing. I would like to explore it a little more as it is new and different So if I am wrong and Gypologger is correct then I stand corrected.
Earlier in the thread Swe#kipp showed a different file. I can see that with his file it is easier to get the side plate to lineup to the working corner. With the file I am using I can't get that nice downward angle in the side plate and make it look as good as his does. He is also using a bar guide but it looks like it can be done with just a hand file.
Off or not it sure does cut but maybe I am only getting the same results as a round filed chisel chain. It sure feels like I am getting more out of the chain.
I don't how much stock to put into Gypologger statements but that pic looks like a butched up machined sharpened tooth. I see many a saw that look like that from being machined sharpened. Even the Chainsaw Repair manuel says that when machine sharpening a tooth to just do the top plate and don't even mention or do the side plate. I even have a stand - up grinder and can do a tooth with it almost as good as hand filed. Something isn't right here from where I sit.
I am not trying to start a war here because I am a little out of my element on this square tooth filing. I would like to explore it a little more as it is new and different So if I am wrong and Gypologger is correct then I stand corrected.
Reddog
TreeHouser
Larry,
You are filing to low. It is leaving a large beak. You need to move your corner up to the edge.
What you have will cut real fast, but will not stay sharp long.
I marked in red where your current corner is and where it needs to go.
Yes you are using the right files.
You are filing to low. It is leaving a large beak. You need to move your corner up to the edge.
What you have will cut real fast, but will not stay sharp long.
I marked in red where your current corner is and where it needs to go.
Yes you are using the right files.
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Ax-Man
Don't make me chop you
I am with you guys now. If I explain this right. From Madsens pics. It looked like the top of the bevel on the file was suppose to line up with the working corner. Which is why I was low on the sideplate. Now I see that where the two bevels meet on the file is suppose to line up with the working corner.
I went out and did a few practice swipes on a tooth. I can see it taking shape the way it is suppose to look and still will be able maintain my top plate angle. I'll file the whole chain again and see how it comes out.
I probaly never would have gotten this right if I hadn't posted pics. It was worth the hassle I went through with the camera and lighting. It was a waster of a day outside anyway so I don't feel I wasted my time as I learned a little more on this square filing and a few more things with the camera and a couple of new camera tricks.
Thanks
I went out and did a few practice swipes on a tooth. I can see it taking shape the way it is suppose to look and still will be able maintain my top plate angle. I'll file the whole chain again and see how it comes out.
I probaly never would have gotten this right if I hadn't posted pics. It was worth the hassle I went through with the camera and lighting. It was a waster of a day outside anyway so I don't feel I wasted my time as I learned a little more on this square filing and a few more things with the camera and a couple of new camera tricks.
Thanks
arborworks1
Treehouser
What kind of Grinder do I need to look for?
T
Tzed250
Guest
This is the best, but super expensive. They have lower priced models.
http://silveychaingrinder.com/ProSharpChiselChain.htm
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sotc
Dormant hero!!
definatley the best! made here locally.
Reddog
TreeHouser
Ax-Man
Don't make me chop you
I don't know what is harder taking pictures of chainsaw cutters or trying to square file them.
I feel like I am filing a race chain. It takes some doing to work with that double beveled file. You have to be watching three things at once, the corner, the top plate inside and outside angle plus the side plate. Using a round file is so much simplier on chisel chain.
How does this look???
I forgot to mention I also have a three cornered file for doing this that I ordered from Bailey's when I first started playing with these files.
First pic is with the three corner which is easier to work with. Second pic is with that double beveled file which takes some practice getting used to using it. Need a good eye and good steady file stroke. I am not perfect with it but it is getting easier.
I feel like I am filing a race chain. It takes some doing to work with that double beveled file. You have to be watching three things at once, the corner, the top plate inside and outside angle plus the side plate. Using a round file is so much simplier on chisel chain.
How does this look???
I forgot to mention I also have a three cornered file for doing this that I ordered from Bailey's when I first started playing with these files.
First pic is with the three corner which is easier to work with. Second pic is with that double beveled file which takes some practice getting used to using it. Need a good eye and good steady file stroke. I am not perfect with it but it is getting easier.
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T
Tzed250
Guest
looks like it was filed with a goofy file because the side plate looks curved.
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