MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
If I'm working close to the end of my line, of course I'll use a stopper knot. Then, and only then.
gf beranek
Old Schooler
Pretty much the same way I use to do it, Butch. One of my falls though come from not paying attention to how close to the end I was. And a stopper would have prevented it.
You got to pay attention in this work or you'll die early on.
You got to pay attention in this work or you'll die early on.
pete mctree
Treehouser
I know the feeling of fractured confidence. After cutting my arm, it took me over a year, of daily work, to regain full confidence in my saw handling. I overcame the initial fear by logical assessment of every cutting scenario & after that, it was just a case of keeping a cool head & steady progression. It does take time for sure
Al Smith
Mac Daddy
There's a slight difference between fear of heights and respect of same .Of course being a little older now I don't move like cat any more but that's a good thing in a way .
Way back when the older 50 plus year old iron workers had a saying.There's old iron workers and bold iron workers .There are no old/bold iron workers .Think about it ....
BTW I'm the oldest certified free climber at my place of employment,that boldness left me years ago .
Way back when the older 50 plus year old iron workers had a saying.There's old iron workers and bold iron workers .There are no old/bold iron workers .Think about it ....
BTW I'm the oldest certified free climber at my place of employment,that boldness left me years ago .
pigwot
M's, Juniper's, Lowen’s, and Inge’s Grandpa
Cary,
The first time my spikes kicked out, the first time a top started coming over the wrong way, or a limb broke and my TIP dropped to the next branch, and all those other 'first times' are with me every single time I climb. I am not always 'afraid', but I am always envisioning the worst scenario possible to ensure that I am minimizing those possible outcomes.
When something happens that gives you a scare, it raises the level of your awareness overall; initially your fear shoots up really high which can limit your work due to that fear. We could call that the 'fear-experience ceiling'. The curve of the graph that is fear-experience goes way up and slowly returns to almost pre-event level, but never all the way back to where it was before.
That ever increasing bottom line of fear that stays with you gets incorporated into your actions and awareness and could be called the 'fear-experience floor'. The higher your fear-experience floor the higher your accumulated wisdom and likelihood of surviving.
The older I get the more I realize that everything could end in a second. My youthful ignorance of my mortality makes me realize how stupid some of the things I have done were, and how lucky I am to have survived them with such a low fear-experience floor.
In the end gravity and entropy usually win in life. We can only stave off that eventuality through our approach to life.
The first time my spikes kicked out, the first time a top started coming over the wrong way, or a limb broke and my TIP dropped to the next branch, and all those other 'first times' are with me every single time I climb. I am not always 'afraid', but I am always envisioning the worst scenario possible to ensure that I am minimizing those possible outcomes.
When something happens that gives you a scare, it raises the level of your awareness overall; initially your fear shoots up really high which can limit your work due to that fear. We could call that the 'fear-experience ceiling'. The curve of the graph that is fear-experience goes way up and slowly returns to almost pre-event level, but never all the way back to where it was before.
That ever increasing bottom line of fear that stays with you gets incorporated into your actions and awareness and could be called the 'fear-experience floor'. The higher your fear-experience floor the higher your accumulated wisdom and likelihood of surviving.
The older I get the more I realize that everything could end in a second. My youthful ignorance of my mortality makes me realize how stupid some of the things I have done were, and how lucky I am to have survived them with such a low fear-experience floor.
In the end gravity and entropy usually win in life. We can only stave off that eventuality through our approach to life.
CurSedVoyce
California Hillbilly
A most excellent post. 
fear experience ceiling... I like that.
fear experience ceiling... I like that.
SouthSoundTree
Treehouser
Positive mental visualization. NO negative visualization.
A little meditation/ deep breathing/ centering before climbing, along with that visualization.
In rock climbing, where leader falls are acceptable due to the different scenario/ gear, I was taught a mantra by a guy that I watched waltz up a 5.11c/d trad route (aka f'n hard with fall protection only as good as you make it): Climbing is fun, my gear is good, falling is safe. Adapt to the situation.
Do some no pressure climbing, be it work or play, with some swinging around, etc, where you have to trust your gear. Maybe some of that aggressive type of speed climbing that you like, while independently belayed, making sure your belayer is solidly anchored (in the event its someone equal in weight or lighter than you, you don't want to launch the belayer).
Add time and implementation of the ideas above, and some more time.
I took a very unplanned 30' rock climbing fall from 33' one time breaking my foot a little (it wasn't the fall but the rebound up and toward the cliff). It took a long time to rebuild. Too much negative visualization afterward, and reluctance to put myself in the similar situation, safely. Too much pressuring myself.
A little meditation/ deep breathing/ centering before climbing, along with that visualization.
In rock climbing, where leader falls are acceptable due to the different scenario/ gear, I was taught a mantra by a guy that I watched waltz up a 5.11c/d trad route (aka f'n hard with fall protection only as good as you make it): Climbing is fun, my gear is good, falling is safe. Adapt to the situation.
Do some no pressure climbing, be it work or play, with some swinging around, etc, where you have to trust your gear. Maybe some of that aggressive type of speed climbing that you like, while independently belayed, making sure your belayer is solidly anchored (in the event its someone equal in weight or lighter than you, you don't want to launch the belayer).
Add time and implementation of the ideas above, and some more time.
I took a very unplanned 30' rock climbing fall from 33' one time breaking my foot a little (it wasn't the fall but the rebound up and toward the cliff). It took a long time to rebuild. Too much negative visualization afterward, and reluctance to put myself in the similar situation, safely. Too much pressuring myself.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Al, how did you become a "certified free climber?" I didn't know there was such a critter.
I dunno - you might luck up and just be maimed or crippled!
I dunno - you might luck up and just be maimed or crippled!
sotc
Dormant hero!!
Pat, thats a great post, I have tried to verbalize that in the past without much luck.
I am no authority on rock climbing, but what is a non event on a rock face, can kill you in a tree. It is rare that a fall is vertical or through free air. Falling is not safe or fun in tree work. When you make a cut or a climb you must be able to visualize all possible out comes and consequences, to judge whether it will be one of many more, or your last.
Dave
pigwot
M's, Juniper's, Lowen’s, and Inge’s Grandpa
Today is the day my fear-experience floor is going to rise again...
i am off to a campout with 16 youth group members from church.
We'll mountainbike, then hike in and build some trail with the trail maintenance crew from the state.
Then a bonfire and sleeping under the stars; 72F today and 50F tonight... should be great, but I am prepared with he first-aid kit for eventualities.
Be safe out there
i am off to a campout with 16 youth group members from church.
We'll mountainbike, then hike in and build some trail with the trail maintenance crew from the state.
Then a bonfire and sleeping under the stars; 72F today and 50F tonight... should be great, but I am prepared with he first-aid kit for eventualities.
Be safe out there
SouthSoundTree
Treehouser
Yes, Dave, falling is not safe in tree climbing due to obstacles (limbs, buildings, etc) and static ropes. His point was to trust your gear and use it as it is meant to be used.
In tree work the equivalent might be swinging is (can be) safe, ascending/ descending can be safe.
In lead rock climbing, one must be very vigilant about predicting things. (Lead rock climbing is where the leader starts climbing at the ground without overhead anchorpoints for the rope, then clips the rope to the cliff via removable widgets that wedge into crack or permanent rings that are attached to the wall. Then the leader climbs above that point. A dynamic/ stretchy rope allows the climber to fall great distances without injury, like in bungee jumping, providing that they don't land on a ledge or push away from the wall, swinging them back in to the wall, etc.)
http://youtu.be/i_50pHrs_so
In tree work the equivalent might be swinging is (can be) safe, ascending/ descending can be safe.
In lead rock climbing, one must be very vigilant about predicting things. (Lead rock climbing is where the leader starts climbing at the ground without overhead anchorpoints for the rope, then clips the rope to the cliff via removable widgets that wedge into crack or permanent rings that are attached to the wall. Then the leader climbs above that point. A dynamic/ stretchy rope allows the climber to fall great distances without injury, like in bungee jumping, providing that they don't land on a ledge or push away from the wall, swinging them back in to the wall, etc.)
http://youtu.be/i_50pHrs_so
Altissimus
TreeHouser
... never fell, but endured a period where it just didn't feel right climbing ... it was 100% mental. I worked my way through it slowly, the more succesful trips up the less the fears would creep in ...
PCTREE
Treehouser
Sorry Cary for your loss of nerve. I think I have mentioned this happened to me since my 37' fall. Before that fall it never occured to me that I could fall. Mine was due to equipment failure. The only positive thing to come from my event was the Wraptor as I fell whilst ascending so decided we needed a "safe" method of ascent. Its been 5 years since my fall and I still am in a mild state of fear constantly whilst climbing, just waiting for something to fail and drop me. I used to think that if Wraptor sales picked up I could quit climbing but that doesnt seem to be on the cards for a while yet. Im starting to think about going to a hypnotist to see if they can help reduce the fear, its not that I am terrified up there but just not comfortable like I used to be, this state leaves you pretty burnt out after a week of big trees.....
Ill let you know if the hypnotist helps any.....
Ill let you know if the hypnotist helps any.....
canadiantreeman
TreeHouser
Cary, chin up man. Seems like a few here have experienced a fall of some sort and all have the same thing to say. It will only make you a better climber, as you are more aware of the risks. As for your aggressiveness...that will come. I know what you mean though. Just take it slow.
I know what its like when you are looking at that top, or codom, and think its too sketchy to climb to. Just double, triple check your safety systems and take it slow and the next thing you know you're right up where you thought you couldn't be. You'll get it back, only you'll be wiser when it comes. Look out world!
I know what its like when you are looking at that top, or codom, and think its too sketchy to climb to. Just double, triple check your safety systems and take it slow and the next thing you know you're right up where you thought you couldn't be. You'll get it back, only you'll be wiser when it comes. Look out world!
Bodean
Cali dreamer
Cary, time heals it all.
Good luck.
Good luck.
rangerdanger
TreeHouser
You'll get back there dude. When I went and worked with Kevin, I had a close call, my TIP failed as I was ascending. Luckily I was only a few feet up and just slid down the trunk to the ground. Poor decision making on my part. But anyways, I was messed up a bit, kept a close eye on what I tied into, didn't trust my TIP 100% most of the time. Just took time for me to get past it. Now I pay a lot more attention to what I tie into, and trust my TIP fully again.
BTW, when my TIP failed, I big mental thing for me was just going back up the same tree and finishing the job. I was freaked out a bit, but I figured if I could go up this tree and finish the job, I could get past my TIP failure eventually. So I did and I think that helped me quite a bit.
BTW, when my TIP failed, I big mental thing for me was just going back up the same tree and finishing the job. I was freaked out a bit, but I figured if I could go up this tree and finish the job, I could get past my TIP failure eventually. So I did and I think that helped me quite a bit.
gf beranek
Old Schooler
It's a lesson. bone up and share the experience so others will learn. That's what's about.
In the meantime work with something you're more comfortable with.
You're a lucky man.
In the meantime work with something you're more comfortable with.
You're a lucky man.
Old Monkey
Treehouser
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2005
- Messages
- 8,764
Everyone is so supportive. If you were my brother Cary, I'd tell you its probably time to hang it up and give me all your gear. Either you'd get pissed at me and get back out on those limbs just to spite me or I'd get some cool gear. Sort of a win win from my perspective.
I fell over 30' (free-fall) when I was 18.....tautline ran right off the end of the rope. Fell with a Poulan running in my hand. I was climbing again the next day, albeit slowly.
Fell again when I was 30. Only about 20', again free-fall. That time I was bruised internally, as I ached inside for over a week. Also think I broke something in my left wrist and lower back as well, though I didn't go to a doctor.
As both instances were my fault, I didn't hesitate to climb again, and still love it. I do use a lanyard more now. Guess I'm getting old, at least that's what Carl blames it on.
It'll probably take a little time, but I would imagine your confidence will return rather quickly. The more you climb, the quicker it'll come back, I suppose.
Fell again when I was 30. Only about 20', again free-fall. That time I was bruised internally, as I ached inside for over a week. Also think I broke something in my left wrist and lower back as well, though I didn't go to a doctor.
As both instances were my fault, I didn't hesitate to climb again, and still love it. I do use a lanyard more now. Guess I'm getting old, at least that's what Carl blames it on.
It'll probably take a little time, but I would imagine your confidence will return rather quickly. The more you climb, the quicker it'll come back, I suppose.
Old Monkey
Treehouser
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2005
- Messages
- 8,764
When you're 40 you'll only fall 10 feet.
Bodean
Cali dreamer
Takes time, I flipped a loader down the hill once. Woulda died without the seatbelt.
Shook me up for about a year, now I'm one of the "Go to Guys" with it.
The confidence will return.
It's all good.
Close calls and surviving falls are nature's way of saying, slow your roll, MoFo!
Shook me up for about a year, now I'm one of the "Go to Guys" with it.
The confidence will return.
It's all good.
Close calls and surviving falls are nature's way of saying, slow your roll, MoFo!
treesandsurf
Treehouser
Fear is a good thing. Too much it can be a problem but some amount keeps us honest. I like the section in Ger's book Fundamentals about fear.
Every time I get a real bad beating in the ocean, it takes me a few sessions to get back to a comfort zone. Most sessions on big days there's a lump in my throat and it makes my vision and thinking clearer and able to make calculated risks. I've found hesitation though can get you in more trouble than fear!
jp
Every time I get a real bad beating in the ocean, it takes me a few sessions to get back to a comfort zone. Most sessions on big days there's a lump in my throat and it makes my vision and thinking clearer and able to make calculated risks. I've found hesitation though can get you in more trouble than fear!
jp
W
Widow Shooter
Guest
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #50
it's coming back, that sick feeling I had for awhile is almost gone, been doing some work and as much rec climbing as I can to really get the system dialed-in.
thanks all, good, sound advice, and Darin, you ain't getting my stuff man
thanks all, good, sound advice, and Darin, you ain't getting my stuff man
