re-writing history with stone artifacts
- Thread starter murphy4trees
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Good stuff, for sure. Mind bending.
No doubt if you like this then you are into Graham Hancock, he's into all this plus lots more on entire lost ancient civilizations, as there is all sorts of scientific evidence that doesn't jive with current accepted archeological dogma. I found him on the Joe Rogan podcast
I dig pondering what life was like 1000, 10,000, 80,000 years ago
No doubt if you like this then you are into Graham Hancock, he's into all this plus lots more on entire lost ancient civilizations, as there is all sorts of scientific evidence that doesn't jive with current accepted archeological dogma. I found him on the Joe Rogan podcast
I dig pondering what life was like 1000, 10,000, 80,000 years ago
Marc-Antoine
TreeHouser
Thanks to share that.
Where are the machine tools and the measurement systems ? They have to be somewhere, and some used advanced tooling should exist in the dump areas. But absolutely nothing at this day, no gear, no drawing of them and the process, though they are so descriptive for plenty of other subjests, nothing ! So strange actually.
yes its crazy. I was reading some of the youtube comments, several folks posited that as the tools were worn down, they were remanufactured into new tools instead of discarded. And another guy said that even today, we don't leave tools laying around a finished project.
One thing I wasn't clear on is how they said it is possible to cut harder surfaces with softer materials by using a third material as sorta like sand paper and grinding it in there.
I bet Mr 09 will weigh in here with insight
One thing I wasn't clear on is how they said it is possible to cut harder surfaces with softer materials by using a third material as sorta like sand paper and grinding it in there.
I bet Mr 09 will weigh in here with insight
I still gotta get some time and watch the videos, but it's exactly like grinding or lapping, you are using an abrasive. They didn't have access to aluminum oxide like we often use now, but they had sand, which is quartz crystals (very hard). Many materials fracture along grain structures, and sand happens to be one of them (which is why diamonds are always "cut", it's simply breaking on a grain, which is perfectly flat on the atomic level). The sand gets embedded in the soft material, and when it fractures it offers a sharp cutting surface to the material.
You can use anything from a stick to a copper tool to act as your cutting implement, you just throw some sand in first and go to town. Ancient people were far from stupid, and figured this out with no problem. It's the exact same process that the earth uses for wearing down rock. Sand is actually such a good abrasive that special buckets are used for digging in it, hardened steel doesn't stand a chance. They use hard facing rods to weld patterns on the bucket to maximize a layer of sand sticking to the bucket, so the sand abrades sand rather than the bucket.
Today we use cutting materials joined together with a glue, and they design them to either hold very well for heavy material removal or to flake off easily for fine detailing and precision. The accuracy is maintained by dressing the grinding wheel.
You can use anything from a stick to a copper tool to act as your cutting implement, you just throw some sand in first and go to town. Ancient people were far from stupid, and figured this out with no problem. It's the exact same process that the earth uses for wearing down rock. Sand is actually such a good abrasive that special buckets are used for digging in it, hardened steel doesn't stand a chance. They use hard facing rods to weld patterns on the bucket to maximize a layer of sand sticking to the bucket, so the sand abrades sand rather than the bucket.
Today we use cutting materials joined together with a glue, and they design them to either hold very well for heavy material removal or to flake off easily for fine detailing and precision. The accuracy is maintained by dressing the grinding wheel.
flushcut
TreeHouser
I have read somewhere the possible tool for drilling was a copper tube and abrasive dust probably garnet. The copper being soft and the garnet being hard would embed themselves in the copper and act as a modern day diamond abrasive tool. How they made the copper tube is another question.
It's kinda one of those things that people take for granted that they are smarter than people that came before them. They were different from us, practiced different religions, e.t.c, so there's no way that they could come up with stuff, so it must be aliens lol. I finally got to watch the video, and the narrator didn't understand the difference between turning and drilling operations, or what cnc means. He went on and on about their turning of stuff, but we know the lathe and drill likely predated the wheel. He then claimed that artifacts that were shipped around the world were accurate beyond what's possible without climate control, but then claimed that no one has measured anything. Metrology, the science of measurement, works with granite all the time, and the accuracy they claimed is only achieved in precise temperature controlled rooms, because heating and cooling of a few degrees causes even granite to warp.
It was a cool video, but it annoyed me at the same time. They spent a half hour, and i think that their message was that research is needed in stone working to better understand these amazing works, which i can agree with. The producers or writers didn't have the foggiest idea of machining or stone working. They completely rejected the idea that the works could have been done by hand, without realizing that our most accurate macro sized projects are of course finished by hand even today.
They were amazed at the accuracy of level measurements, but didn't realize the most accurate level we have today is a water level, which they definitely had. We know they had mastery of projecting light, which is the same accuracy as our transit and lasers today. Their best point was very briefly covered, which is that a 3000 year old civilization had ample time to develop what they call "advanced" machining.
It was a cool video, but it annoyed me at the same time. They spent a half hour, and i think that their message was that research is needed in stone working to better understand these amazing works, which i can agree with. The producers or writers didn't have the foggiest idea of machining or stone working. They completely rejected the idea that the works could have been done by hand, without realizing that our most accurate macro sized projects are of course finished by hand even today.
They were amazed at the accuracy of level measurements, but didn't realize the most accurate level we have today is a water level, which they definitely had. We know they had mastery of projecting light, which is the same accuracy as our transit and lasers today. Their best point was very briefly covered, which is that a 3000 year old civilization had ample time to develop what they call "advanced" machining.
Jed
TreeHouser
Kyle: Plese tell me why you are not some super-celebrated professor at Oxford or Cambridge.
Jed, because I'm not smart, and am basically an alcoholic redneck that holds sparklers for a living 
Cory, the building and rebuilding of machining tools uses hand scraping, which is using a single edged tool and by hand shaving down high spots. They mark the high points using marking dye and a known flat (or curved) surface, and then carefully scrape them. This process has been around since at least the beginning of the industrial revolution, but i could easily see ancient people coming to the same process, especially considering their very high understanding of math and geometry. This is the exact process that granite surface plates are made and adjusted as well.
en.m.wikipedia.org
What's also pretty cool, if you actually look into machine technology history, you notice that every step usually builds upon another step. First the lathes came, then the shapers and planers, then milling, then grinding, e.t.c. As the industry advanced, the average machinist was able to be less and less trained, but production and precision increased exponentially. This was due to the highly skilled machinists setting everything up, which had a traditional apprenticeship. In their apprenticeship they were first taught hand techniques; filing, scraping, lapping e.t.c. By the time they were halfway thorough their apprenticeship (meaning they had much much more to learn) they could build just about anything, by hand and to greater accuracy.
It used to be commonplace for your regular shade tree mechanic to be able to do this too, obviously to a certain degree. Your head gaskets, engine and other bearings, cylinder walls, e.t.c could all resurfaced by hand. All a machine tool does is make it an easier and quicker process, although if utmost care is taken, hand work is still always more accurate.
Cory, the building and rebuilding of machining tools uses hand scraping, which is using a single edged tool and by hand shaving down high spots. They mark the high points using marking dye and a known flat (or curved) surface, and then carefully scrape them. This process has been around since at least the beginning of the industrial revolution, but i could easily see ancient people coming to the same process, especially considering their very high understanding of math and geometry. This is the exact process that granite surface plates are made and adjusted as well.
Hand scraper - Wikipedia
What's also pretty cool, if you actually look into machine technology history, you notice that every step usually builds upon another step. First the lathes came, then the shapers and planers, then milling, then grinding, e.t.c. As the industry advanced, the average machinist was able to be less and less trained, but production and precision increased exponentially. This was due to the highly skilled machinists setting everything up, which had a traditional apprenticeship. In their apprenticeship they were first taught hand techniques; filing, scraping, lapping e.t.c. By the time they were halfway thorough their apprenticeship (meaning they had much much more to learn) they could build just about anything, by hand and to greater accuracy.
It used to be commonplace for your regular shade tree mechanic to be able to do this too, obviously to a certain degree. Your head gaskets, engine and other bearings, cylinder walls, e.t.c could all resurfaced by hand. All a machine tool does is make it an easier and quicker process, although if utmost care is taken, hand work is still always more accurate.
flushcut
TreeHouser
Hand scrapping is some kind of which craft or something, amazing, but which craft. lol
Jed, because I'm not smart, and am basically an alcoholic redneck that holds sparklers for a living
Omfg that was hilarious.
Yeah and Socrates was humble too
Wow, dang it, you clued me in to what scraping was awhile back here in another thread. But my lack of encyclopedic recall, or much of any recall lately
, perhaps coupled with the fact that I hold no sparklers for a living, prevented me from connecting the egyptian tooling concept with the capability of high-accuracy hand work. Superb insight, 09, thanks for the info.On a different note, it is interesting that 09, who is a strong advocate of the value and importance of labor unions, is diving headfirst into the tree service industry which is a particularly unorganized, lightly regulated, free-for-all environment. Yin and yang at work, no doubt.
... On a different note, it is interesting that 09, who is a strong advocate of the value and importance of labor unions, is diving headfirst into the tree service industry which is a particularly unorganized, lightly regulated, free-for-all environment. Yin and yang at work, no doubt.
Ahh, proof that even critical thinking has limits.
Lol there's a definite reason for that! When you are in a trade union, a large part of that is the fact that your skillset was developed and paid for by others. The journeymen of the past worked with you when you knew less than nothing, and often paid for your benefits during that time period as well. In return for that, you agree to only do that work when employed by a union contractor. This ensures that all work is covered by union rules and wages, increasing our value and bargaining power.
So if i start a welding business on the side, i have to be very careful to not do work that is covered by our agreement, or other trades. This is punishable by large fines as well. So tree work is a wonderful gray area until you get into utility line clearance, land clearing, or running your own crane, all of which are a very long way off. So tada, tree work it is
So if i start a welding business on the side, i have to be very careful to not do work that is covered by our agreement, or other trades. This is punishable by large fines as well. So tree work is a wonderful gray area until you get into utility line clearance, land clearing, or running your own crane, all of which are a very long way off. So tada, tree work it is
Marc-Antoine
TreeHouser
The enormous mirrors in the telescopes have their curvature adjusted by hand polishing. The measurement is make by a light with a precise wave length.
murphy4trees
TreeHouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #18
NICE!!!
sanchez033
Treehouser
murphy4trees, thanks for sharing. I like artifacts, cause it's kinda mysterious things, which have some spiritual power and can help people in different situations. Here is what I found few days ago, this 777 angel number page, where author being a professional astrologer showed up some real examples how numerology can be useful for any of us.
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