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MS440 and MS460 Barn Rebuilds

lxskllr

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What I hear about carbs is it's better to just buy a new one due to price, and the difficulty of getting carbs fully clean. Wouldn't hurt to to clean them up, and check the rubber. Maybe you'll get lucky?
 

TINYHULK

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Yeah I’m thinking I’ll buy one new carb to start with. Hopefully the one on the 440 is good and the new one will go on the 460 if it works
 

SkwerI

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4 bolts to remove the jug after you take the muffler and carb off.. You need a long T27 torx head socket (or the T27 torx wrench that comes with the saws). Scoring on the cylinder will typically be on the exhaust side so you won't see it looking in through the exhaust port.
 

TINYHULK

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In the case of scoring get a new big bore kit. Any way of testing the crank and bearings
 

TINYHULK

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Gotcha. Why are some known good numbers for a compression test on these saws?
 

lxskllr

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Maybe 120-150 pounds? 150# should be close to new. Vacuum and pressure tests check the seals in the case. I don't know much about it, but the general idea is to add vacuum and/or pressure, and see if it holds. I think it's just a couple pounds for a fixed time period. Say you add 2#, it should be close to 2# after 15 minutes. Someone else should be able to give you better info on the particulars, and how to accomplish it.
 

pete mctree

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Vacuum test as well as a pressure test. You need to be sure that the crank seals are functioning before you go any further- you don’t want to build it up to discover that the seals are done and you have an air leak.
 

TINYHULK

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I ordered a cheap recoil just to do compression tests and a mityvac to do the vacuum and pressure tests. I’ve heard about people doing gasket deletes to increase compression. Any caution/advice on that?
 
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TINYHULK

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They would use a permatex/right stuff gasket making sealer. I’ve used it in automotive applications growing up in my dads shop and works great. Seen it a few times just researching this stuff but that doesn’t mean it’s reliable or worth it. Just curious
 

Tree09

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Well that's a gasket, so that makes sense. I didn't know they had one that could stand that much heat tho, i thought most were basically silicone. Agreed on low temp stuff it works great, i just didn't think they were there yet on that high of temp and pressure.
 

TINYHULK

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I know for sure there are some high temperature options. Never paid much mind to pressure. But when I put the head back on the engine of my Dodge truck I was instructed to use a gasket maker compound has an extra layer to the original gasket. So I guess they can handle that kind of pressure
 

TINYHULK

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Yeah. Haven’t replaced head on a diesel to know if some manufacturers request a permatex product. My reason for asking it because some guys on YouTube will remove the gasket and use a permatex product in place of it. Making a smaller gap means a higher compression. My reason for asking was if anyone know if there was any long term reliability issues or concerns in timing when this is done on some saws
 

Marc-Antoine

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This gasket is at the cylinder base, not at the cylinder head, so it sees barely any pressure comparatively to a head gasket, only the pulsating pressure of the crankcase. In the chainsaw, the head and the cylinder are molded together in a single piece not two like the car's engine. No need to a reinforced gasket here, just a flimsy one like silicone paste or impregnated paper can work. Removing the thick gasket rizes the compression and increases the power delievered, but it makes the starter handle harder to pull. With other issues to figure out, it can be frustrating (and painful). I'd try to make the saw run as is with its stock compression at first, then, if it's ok, I'd play with the improovement. Don't try to chase too many goals at once with such a resurection. A big point to verify is if the piston still has enough room at the top when the thick gasket is removed. If the piston is too close to the cylinder's top, even if it doesn't touch, it can be deadly for the engine.
 

TINYHULK

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Discover this on the topic of gasket deletes:

 

Trains

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I would offer that you just go over the saws, find whats wrong, replace what needs replacing, and leave them stock for now, once you gain more experience and have run them, then you can decide on further mods.
For now, you have some good advice and suggestions on a way forward, get them running right, learn along the way and enjoy them.

incase you dont have these already.

finally was able to convert a non working .pdf file grrr.
 

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TINYHULK

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Awesome thanks trains! I didn’t have any of them yet. I did just get approved as a member with ope a couple days ago. Been taking it all in before I introduced myself there. I have new caber rings for both saws coming in and enough parts and tools to test them if not get them running. As I was looking in to them I could quickly tell the family man that worked on them didn’t have a lot of small engine experience. So I’m super grateful to have some guidance in getting these awesome saws back in the wood 🪵
 

Trains

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All good mate, yeah OPE has some great info on saws etc, some good people over there too, as with any group, you get a bit of a mix :). AS has some really good saw techs there too, and you will see them on both forums too. :)

Once you get the bits you think you need, lay them out, let us know what you have, and your plan, and we can offer advice, suggestions on where your going right, and where you could go better.
One tool worth investing into if your splitting cases and replacing crank bearings is the case tools that Mattyo offers, I have a set, and it was $$$$ to land in au, but worth it for the ease at which you can put cases back together.
if your not splitting cases, but just doing crank seals and rings, fuel/ impulse hoses, then you wont need the case tools for these saws.
Another tool that can help is a 1/4" drive t27 long for the cyld head bolts, and a decent torque wrench to torque them.
After that a cave man with a scrench and t27 can do almost everything else. :)

I think its a very valuable asset for any person using saws to know how to correctly maintain, fix, repair, tune, and sharpen them.
 

TINYHULK

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I found the case tools from Mattyo. Definitely seems like a handy kit. I do hope and plan on being able to get good at this where I can buy and fix up old saws in the area. My area doesn’t really have any skilled/known chainsaw techs and I would like to be that guy. So far my only projects are my 440 and 460 I got for free that need a good bit of work. My long term hope is to get to port my 440 and build a beast of a saw. Not sure what I’ll do with the 460 yet but definitely gonna fix it up and learn with both of them. I have a connection with a guy locally that receives all of the broken chainsaws from a big production company. I heard he has a whole container filled with chainsaws. Most of them are 201tc’s to my knowledge. After I get my saws going I’m hoping to get his info from my boss and go by his place and see how many saws I come back with lol. May get a bunch of broken top handles and get to build them and sell them. I ordered everything I need to start learning timing on the saws and doing the pressure/vacuum tests and compression tests. So that kit was for assembly. Gonna number my questions cause I have a lot of them lol, sorry.
1. What tools would you recommend for separating the casing as well as doing the crank seals?
2. Also when checking the squish, from watching tinman on YouTube he uses solder to check it. What is a normal diameter solder?
3. Is the squish checked at the smallest part of the solder where it got crimped or is it checked on the tip of the solder in the “squish bubble” area?
4. When torquing down the head bolts, what are an adequate torque standard for those or is that info available somewhere?
Oh and another disclaimer. There is virtually no husqvarna dealers in my area and no one runs there saws so all I ever work on is stihl
 
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stikine

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Matt, you might get more responses over at OPE. There are a lot more porters that post over there. Mastermind, Huskil, Stumpshot are just a few, but have a wealth of information.
 

Trains

Firewood Hack, wanna be tree climber
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I found the case tools from Mattyo. Definitely seems like a handy kit. I do hope and plan on being able to get good at this where I can buy and fix up old saws in the area. My area doesn’t really have any skilled/known chainsaw techs and I would like to be that guy. So far my only projects are my 440 and 460 I got for free that need a good bit of work. My long term hope is to get to port my 440 and build a beast of a saw. Not sure what I’ll do with the 460 yet but definitely gonna fix it up and learn with both of them. I have a connection with a guy locally that receives all of the broken chainsaws from a big production company. I heard he has a whole container filled with chainsaws. Most of them are 201tc’s to my knowledge. After I get my saws going I’m hoping to get his info from my boss and go by his place and see how many saws I come back with lol. May get a bunch of broken top handles and get to build them and sell them. I ordered everything I need to start learning timing on the saws and doing the pressure/vacuum tests and compression tests. So that kit was for assembly. Gonna number my questions cause I have a lot of them lol, sorry.
1. What tools would you recommend for separating the casing as well as doing the crank seals?
2. Also when checking the squish, from watching tinman on YouTube he uses solder to check it. What is a normal diameter solder?
3. Is the squish checked at the smallest part of the solder where it got crimped or is it checked on the tip of the solder in the “squish bubble” area?
4. When torquing down the head bolts, what are an adequate torque standard for those or is that info available somewhere?
Oh and another disclaimer. There is virtually no husqvarna dealers in my area and no one runs there saws so all I ever work on is stihl
Ok, lets look at the questions, and well done on the possibility of some cheap broken saws, amazing what you can come across sometimes.
Be warned, messing with saws can become addictive.

lets work on getting you fixing them properly, the porting can come later.
On separating case halves I just use the husky one, and bend the ends of it out wider on the larger saws if needed.
ie

as far as removing the seals, I have several methods, on the really small ones like the ms260, I have 2 paint tin lid openers (basically fancy flat head screwdrivers with handles) :), that I have cut a recess into, so you can slide them down past the rubber lip, then twist them and lock the seal in the cut recess of the end, and then just pull out, sometimes it tears the seal and it stays in place, so just do it again, after it first deforms, it comes out easier the second time.
just dont mark up the crank, when installing them, you can either get the proper stihl tools, or I just use sockets the right size and mark them with tape to get the correct depth for the seal to be seated to, and usual disclaimer about being careful on the crank, I put some tape over the circlip recess on the crank, or steps, and plenty of rubber grease on the seal and crank and gently work the seal up over the step or lip so the inner spring and lip is not dragged out of position.
On others, just a small screw wound into the edge of the seal, but you have to be careful not to touch the crank or case half, then just pull out with pliers, deforming the seal in 2 places with a screwdriver/ punch prior can help in removal of them, but in tight spots, be careful, you cant undo a bruised bit of case half, or remove a scratch on the crank.

2,3, yes just use thin solder that you would for circuit board repairs, if it doesnt squash up then use the thicker one, yes measure the squashed bit, that shows you the clearance, do it on the 12, 3 6 and 9 o clock positions too in case its not the same.
usually, you just bend the solder, you can see/ feel its up aginst the edge of the cyld, and then rotate the crank and let it dent the solder.

4 Torque specs are in the service manual I put up before, I just seat the cyld first by hand, making sure its sq and all good, then go round at a low torque, then about half torque, then do a final torque to final spec.

Some just go to max first up, I dont.

Only stupid question is the one you dont ask.
 

Altissimus

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Husqvarna has it all figured out (against us !) ... they upped the prices on the parts to the point that a rebuild cost puts you up to more than halfway to a brand new saw , heartless really. Same for discontinuing popular models availability in North America then blaming the EPA , I have two of those that I have had rebuilt because I simply prefer them over what's on the sales shelf new.
 

TINYHULK

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Awesome thanks trains! On the seal pullers is this a good set or would you recommend something different for the pullers? I like your methods and will use them on my current saws. May just purchase the tool for it if I keep working on them. Everything comes in Thursday and I’m gonna be able to practice checking all of the timing numbers and start my book of cylinder numbers. Really hoping I’ll be able to atleast get the saws running with some new piston rings and other parts/tuning. Atleast then I’ll be able to check compression numbers before and after the rings and see if I need to put a new cylinder in

Yeah altissimus, if your buying oem even stihl isn’t too far from those prices. Would cost me $700+ just to get the parts for one of these saws if I had to do the cylinder. For me I love the idea of getting good at this where I can keep all of our saws running and even getting to where I can port them and build them up. I grew up in my dads auto shop and was a diagnostic technician so working with my hands have always been a part of me. How much better that I can combine that with my love of tree work. It seems worth it to do the work to keep a legendary saw alive. One day it’s gonna be real hard to find a non m-tronic saw so I want to start building and preserving now
 
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