MS 200t problems

[Giles]

Yeah---Like the "Enhancement Kit" for the 201T--They still wont acknowledge parts they "enhanced" were factory defective!
Thanks for the information.

 

[Al Smith]

On that I've worked on a lot of things other than chainsaws from German manufacturers .Several things about these .First as a general rule they make good products .Having said that they seldom if ever admit they had a flaw in design and also are proud to use "OEM" types of components and therefore control the after market to a great degree .On that they are successful except in a few cases where they forgot a thing called "yankee ingenuity " .We beat them at their own game more than once concerning high speed precision metal working machinery used in the automotive industry .Never underestimate a red neck with a box full of tools .

 

[Giles]

Perhaps wrong term .It's internal to the bearing .It's a fiber washer type affair .Once it wears enough it allows the crankshaft to move parallel to the bearing .The clutch side of the crankshaft will get a build up of sawdust and oil about like hard carbon after enough run time which will heat up and chew up the seal .
Stihl being Stihl never once mentioned this fact nor for that matter did they ever mention problems with the Zama carbs .Myself and Adam Clark discovered leakage around the welch plugs internal to the carb in the fuel chamber .Easy fix using red loctite .Stihl obviously preferred to sell new carbs at 90 bucks a pop at the time .
If I get some time I have a picture of the bearing and if I can find it I'll post it .

Al---what do you consider excessive crank movement?

 

[Al Smith]

I'm only guessing but I'd say less than 1/8 of an inch .I might have it on one of my micro fiche slides .

 

[Giles]

I'm only guessing but I'd say less than 1/8 of an inch .I might have it on one of my micro fiche slides .

The most I have found was .033.
Mostly I just feel but I have four 200T for sale and I check two of them, one had .013 and the other had .016.
I am in agreement that with 1/8", I would do further checking.
I have see nothing in service manual addressing 200T crank endplay.
Thanks for the info.

 

[Al Smith]

As I said before nobody mentioned it .However if you look at a well ran 020 or 200 you can see what looks much like carbon right up next to the clutch side seal .That has to be hard on the seal if it does have some traverse movement .

Before they came out with after market cylinders and pistons e bay was full of complete crankcases ,with crankshafts from burned up saws for 50 bucks a pop .Fact I bought one just for the case to repair one that leaked oil .
Those seals are not the best design but as tiny as they are I'm not sure what else would work .I'd say the best thing to do if you own one is about the first indication the saw is starting to lean out is at least replace the clutch side seal after all that carbon is cleaned off the shaft .Cheap insurance if nothing else .It's probably a 15-20 minute job on the clutch side .

 

[Magnus]

There is something I don't get here. Crank should sit in bearing, bearing in case.. No movement!
There is no fiber, plastic or other washer inside bearing in crankcase.
Piston rod is another thing. It should have side play.

Blame German saws all you want but they are all the same. They all need crank to stay put and case to be tight.

If you have carbon in bearings and seals inside seal... The two stroke oil sucks!
If you have carbon like material outside seal on clutch side, bar oil and service sucks!

 

[Giles]

As I said before nobody mentioned it .However if you look at a well ran 020 or 200 you can see what looks much like carbon right up next to the clutch side seal .That has to be hard on the seal if it does have some traverse movement .

Before they came out with after market cylinders and pistons e bay was full of complete crankcases ,with crankshafts from burned up saws for 50 bucks a pop .Fact I bought one just for the case to repair one that leaked oil .
Those seals are not the best design but as tiny as they are I'm not sure what else would work .I'd say the best thing to do if you own one is about the first indication the saw is starting to lean out is at least replace the clutch side seal after all that carbon is cleaned off the shaft .Cheap insurance if nothing else .It's probably a 15-20 minute job on the clutch side .

As I stated, I have rebuilt MANY 200T and I don't remember ever seeing a carbon like buildup on shaft, only oily sawdust.
What is this buildup and where does it come from?

 

[SkwerI]

Clutch dust combined with crystallized grease from greasing the sprocket roller bearing. Technically it is a form of carbon, but not from internal combustion.

 

[Al Smith]

You are all forgetting it's a roller bearing not a ball bearing .A ball bearing by it's design will have provisions for thrust,side movement,a roller bearing needs a thrust plate of some sort .Here's a couple of pictures of an old bearing.I had thought it was a seven roller but it's an 8 roller .You can see the fiber washers which are worn out .It's an open cage for the rollers the only thing that prevents side thrust are those washers

 

[Al Smith]

I've got a couple of 200T crankshafts some place if I can find them .If I can and if they haven't been cleaned of the black stuff I'll put a picture on .

 

[Magnus]

No, not forgetting... In all bearings there is parts that together make the bearing.

I repeat:
It still should not be any play unless its in need of replacing.
If you have carbon in bearings and seals inside seal... The two stroke oil sucks!
If you have carbon like material outside seal on clutch side, bar oil and service sucks!

 

[Giles]

"It still should not be any play unless its in need of replacing."
I respectably disagree with your above sentence. ALL bearings must have a certain amount of clearance. When any bearing heats up, clearance becomes less and if there is no clearance, bearing will be damaged.
I still don't totally understand the "carbon buildup"?
Personally, I do not change parts that are not damaged or worn. They have proven themselves.
Over the years, I have replaced items, not necessarily related to gasoline engines, and they failed!
This is especially true today with so many low quality replacement parts. Even some OEM parts might not be manufactured by them.

 

[Al Smith]

Evidently there is either a lack of communication or a misunderstanding .First of all I never implied there was any carbon in the bearings .Where pray tell did that idea come from? What I did say is there appeared to be a carbon like build up on the crankshaft stub ,not the danged bearing .
Yes with good bearings there is very limited end play as there should be .If they wear out of course there will be ,does that make sense? Just because I'm a nice guy tell ya what I'm going to do,post a picture of a brand new 200T crank bearing .Decide for yourself if it has thrust washers or not ..Now anybody who disagrees those are not thrust washers then explain exactly what they are ,they sure as the dickens aren't seals . http://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/0L8AAOSweW5VaNxH/s-l225.jpg

 

[Magnus]

Evidently there is either a lack of communication or a misunderstanding .First of all I never implied there was any carbon in the bearings .Where pray tell did that idea come from? What I did say is there appeared to be a carbon like build up on the crankshaft stub ,not the danged bearing .

It could be from:

However if you look at a well ran 020 or 200 you can see what looks much like carbon right up next to the clutch side seal .That has to be hard on the seal if it does have some traverse movement .

This is what my following reply was for:

If you have carbon in bearings and seals inside seal... The two stroke oil sucks!
If you have carbon like material outside seal on clutch side, bar oil and service sucks!

If you have a axial play that you can feel and measure with tens of mm's the bearings are either not sitting on crank or housing or they are gone and should be replaced.
I replaced bearings on many on 020's. I have 30 or so in parts here for all kinds of reasons. A couple good cases with good bearings I can easy swap when custemer wait.
Haven't replaces as many on 200's, perhaps on 20.. Usually main rod bearing is gone so its junk anyway..

 

[Nutball]

There is some play on this saw, I don't know if it is enough to worry about. I can definitely pull the shaft back and forth, but when comparing to a ruler, at most there is a 1/3mm of movement if even that much, it's hard to tell, but nowhere near half a mm. To compare an old 290 and Husqvarna 455 both have absolutely no shaft movement, that or they are too hard to slide through the bearings.

 

[Giles]

As was stated, the 020/200 have needle bearings on crank as opposed to ball bearings on most other saws. If the engine is torn down, you can get a close measurement with feeler gauge placed between crank and housing.
If in question, I use a dial indicator and most have been .013---.016, with worst being .036.
As I stated in an earlier post--all bearings have to have clearance to compensate for heat expansion. With some, this can be only a few thousands.
I have never checked cold verses hot bearing clearance in a chainsaw but I am sure it would decrease when hot?

 

[Al Smith]

I looked at the repair manual, on micro film and could not find any specs on transverse end play.Then thinking about it .it would stand to reason a well used model 020 or 200 would eventually wear the seals out,end play or not .
The saw in question was given to me by Adam Clark who has a very successful tree service in California .Hard to say how many hours it had but it was well taken care of .I used it two or three years after I reworked the engine for more power until it started leaning out .Which the longer it went the quicker it showed signs of an air leak .It wasn't all the sudden though .It might be 10 minutes until,then 5 etc .I suspect now the seals were losing their suppleness combined with the crankshaft end play.

Now think about an arborist using one in a tree .Make a few cuts then reposition ,a few more and do it again .It might make a couple hundred cuts in a day and be off and on the entire day .It might never get really heated up .
Now comes old Al who used the thing more for a little ground saw than tree work .Ran the little rascal a tank full at a time ,heated it up you might say .A tank on this thing is about 25 minutes because it's souped up .
So if I never ran it long I might not have ever known it had problems or maybe so .The good thing is I didn't cook the piston and cylinder .That would have been a very sad day .