Jonny
Treehouser
That's a new one to me. Makes alot of sense, I gotta try that sometime!
MA Problem with Maasdam and 5/8" Bull Rope
- Thread starter rfwoody
- Start date
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That's a new one to me. Makes alot of sense, I gotta try that sometime!
SeanKroll
Treehouser
Another of my great ideas,
ahhh NO...
I just have a good memory of discussion of the idea presented in Fundamentals of General Treeworker, by our esteemed friend Jerry B.
Almost everything, I've learned from someone, so I'm glad to Pass It Forward (as cheesy a phrase as that is).
ahhh NO...
I just have a good memory of discussion of the idea presented in Fundamentals of General Treeworker, by our esteemed friend Jerry B.
Almost everything, I've learned from someone, so I'm glad to Pass It Forward (as cheesy a phrase as that is).
Marc-Antoine
TreeHouser
With a real static rope/cable, the tree will just "sit" on it, even if you didn't pull hard enough initially. That's assuming that you pulled all the slack off the system and beyond, though.
The issue with a stretchy rope is that you have to be sure to overcome all the back load when you make the backcut. Basically that's putting the whole tree in flotation as is on the hinge. Hard to tell. If the rope doesn't have enough pull, the tree will set back on your bar somewhere in the middle of the backcut. You don't want that because the chainsaw is now useless and the tree becomes even harder to pull. The wedges not only help, but are mandatory to prevent this situation.
The issue with a stretchy rope is that you have to be sure to overcome all the back load when you make the backcut. Basically that's putting the whole tree in flotation as is on the hinge. Hard to tell. If the rope doesn't have enough pull, the tree will set back on your bar somewhere in the middle of the backcut. You don't want that because the chainsaw is now useless and the tree becomes even harder to pull. The wedges not only help, but are mandatory to prevent this situation.
rfwoody
Treehouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #29
Sean, thanks a lot for all these ideas and all the ones you've shared since I've been coming here.
ha, many of your posts are not unlike Kenny/TreeSpyder's in that they warrant reading over and over.
Only with yours, they are like lots of marbles rolling down an inclined board with indentations all in it
......... and every time they roll down the board --- i.e. re-reading the post ... and remembering them in the field --- more get stuck in the holes --- i.e. my brain.
Yeah, the log idea makes good sense even to me.
Sean, I understand about the bathroom scales, weights, logs, etc.....
........... but how does that apply to measuring the amount of force (kN, lbs., etc.) you are putting on a rope?
e.g. looking at the rope and sensing how close you are to exceeding breaking strength or SWL ?
Marc, that is what happened to me on the pecan tree...
So is what you are saying "for" stretchy rope or static rope?
thanks.
ha, many of your posts are not unlike Kenny/TreeSpyder's in that they warrant reading over and over.
Only with yours, they are like lots of marbles rolling down an inclined board with indentations all in it
......... and every time they roll down the board --- i.e. re-reading the post ... and remembering them in the field --- more get stuck in the holes --- i.e. my brain.
Yeah, the log idea makes good sense even to me.
Sean, I understand about the bathroom scales, weights, logs, etc.....
........... but how does that apply to measuring the amount of force (kN, lbs., etc.) you are putting on a rope?
e.g. looking at the rope and sensing how close you are to exceeding breaking strength or SWL ?
Marc, that is what happened to me on the pecan tree...
So is what you are saying "for" stretchy rope or static rope?
thanks.
Last edited:
Marc-Antoine
TreeHouser
For my usual job (arborist only, not logger), I see 3 levels of stretch in my rigging gear.
- the 1/2" 3 strands, very stretchy due to how it's made and the applied force being not very far from the WLL. You get a good part of the stretch possibly affecting the rope.
- the 5/8"+ (16mm) braided bull rope, lower stretch by construction. Used with the CPE, it has even less stretch because the sustained load is way under the WLL.
- the wire cable of the 800 kg Tirefor. It has a little bit of stretch too, but I consider it as nearly insignificant in my application. I don't have worked with Dyneema (beside the tiny throw line), so I can't tell first hand about it.
- the 1/2" 3 strands, very stretchy due to how it's made and the applied force being not very far from the WLL. You get a good part of the stretch possibly affecting the rope.
- the 5/8"+ (16mm) braided bull rope, lower stretch by construction. Used with the CPE, it has even less stretch because the sustained load is way under the WLL.
- the wire cable of the 800 kg Tirefor. It has a little bit of stretch too, but I consider it as nearly insignificant in my application. I don't have worked with Dyneema (beside the tiny throw line), so I can't tell first hand about it.
SeanKroll
Treehouser
CPE, Marc-Antoine?
When I'm using the Maasdam CRP, I use it with:
one arm, bending at the elbow for light pull. (1-3 out of 10)
One arm, pulling from the shoulder and elbow (4-6 out of ten)
Two hands on, pulling hard to max with full body (7-10 out of 10).
When my groundman is pulling with the CRP, I ask him to give me some feedback. He will always say its tight, but what does that mean. I like something more quantitative.
I don't want him to split my top, killing me. Pulling too hard is very dangerous. A local guy was launched off the top of the spar when the boss pulled like hell on the top. The guy landed on the roof of the house. Reported to me by an old employee, as happened to his friend about two years ago.
When I'm using the Maasdam CRP, I use it with:
one arm, bending at the elbow for light pull. (1-3 out of 10)
One arm, pulling from the shoulder and elbow (4-6 out of ten)
Two hands on, pulling hard to max with full body (7-10 out of 10).
When my groundman is pulling with the CRP, I ask him to give me some feedback. He will always say its tight, but what does that mean. I like something more quantitative.
I don't want him to split my top, killing me. Pulling too hard is very dangerous. A local guy was launched off the top of the spar when the boss pulled like hell on the top. The guy landed on the roof of the house. Reported to me by an old employee, as happened to his friend about two years ago.
Marc-Antoine
TreeHouser
I don't how I ended to write CPE but you're right, that's CRP.
SeanKroll
Treehouser
I don't like calling things by brand name if they also make another tool.
I never get out the Sampson or New England to pull a tree. I get out the 1/2" stable braid.
I'm not trying to gain sponsorship or anything.
Maasdam makes cable-comealong and strap come-alongs, too.
I never get out the Sampson or New England to pull a tree. I get out the 1/2" stable braid.
I'm not trying to gain sponsorship or anything.
Maasdam makes cable-comealong and strap come-alongs, too.
theTreeSpyder
TreeHouser
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2016
- Messages
- 691
You get more power from concentrating more distance of force into a smaller one;
like boiling water out of something to raise to higher concentration, or diluting same for more distance, but weaker tea etc.
.
In a rigid lever, you do this with the ratio of input vs. output lengths to pivot each.
In flexible/rolling levers (pulley) use legs of pull ratio against input vs. output.
Either way, if you contrive circumstance of 10 inches input gives only 1 inch output
>>is 10x Leveraged force, at a trade off\loss of 10 x distance,would find is slower, but VERY fast worked backward cuz one end would be forced 1" in same time other end JUMPED 10!
That is all that there is to it, jest in different disguises! Wedge is ramp of more distance run input into smaller lift of exchange. Screw spirals ramp to same math.
10 speed bicycle as truck transmission: different speeds vs. powers trade-offs from same input man or machine. Like electric watts = volts x amps(same battery can deliver more volts at less amps etc.), total mechanical power = distance traveled x force, all are E=mc squared
Even hydraulic bottle jack: If compress 4inches down on small cylinder as input
>>that spreads out so wide to large cylinder that only outputs 1\4inch lift is 16x leveraged return
>>(then times lever input into small cylinder)
All examples above are same volume of force as water in aquarium volume that can be let to run long or forced into smaller\higher aquarium(like higher is higher pressure on side glass), the volume of water force exists and will go far or high. Concentrated or diluted lemonade has the same lemonade power total, but weaker can go longer distance etc.
.
Yin/Yang trade off to the same sum of force\distance, no free ride, pay the piper
>>in fact always some loss\tax of conversion, usually frictions(who's heat force make/up fore loss)
.
Pic:
Zrig is simple answer. 3x pull lengths on load from 1x input.
3 possible pulley positions:
Pulley on load output, gives 2 legs of pull against for more power
Pulley on effort input have to pull 2 legs to get one movement, so pulls faster but weaker
Pulley on non-moving part\anchor is 1:1 breakeven point, but change in direction
.
i'd use truck like a mule instead of Maasdam.
Keep gas, good tires, put load in back on solid ground , consider low pulley to truck if line angle upwards would reduce traction too much when tensioning line.
If a tool is rated at 1000#, i only look to work in clear power band of 250-500#, and lifting more conservative SWL ratio.
W(h)ore out Maasdam cam and left behind at some point.
.
i'd prefer over the top tie off, to Bowline for then SEPARATE zrig pulling (losing highest prusik)
>>i favour (when can) prussik grab tightline (thinner) to TENSIONLESS (so same line now fatter) line\as shelf for prussik to sit on, as most positive. If doing all in one tree pull and zRig would favour Bfly option, instead of 2x1000# on prusik.
Other prussik input less force into for zrig input, is more like this, but i might even throw slip knot in tail under
>>but in an case would place, set prussik, then pull prussik hard in opposite target direction of proposed pull, then snap back to correct direction of pull to seat.
.
Counter-intuitively: have to pull more stretch of line from zRig input,
>>BUT load pull from other end of 3000# would only get 1000# type load elasticity (stiffer) dampening per foot of zRig, not per foot of line in zRig. 3000 pull on same single line shockload gives more elastic dampening; as it enroaches more on the total capacity of the line at 3000 rather than 1000!
like boiling water out of something to raise to higher concentration, or diluting same for more distance, but weaker tea etc.
.
In a rigid lever, you do this with the ratio of input vs. output lengths to pivot each.
In flexible/rolling levers (pulley) use legs of pull ratio against input vs. output.
Either way, if you contrive circumstance of 10 inches input gives only 1 inch output
>>is 10x Leveraged force, at a trade off\loss of 10 x distance,would find is slower, but VERY fast worked backward cuz one end would be forced 1" in same time other end JUMPED 10!
That is all that there is to it, jest in different disguises! Wedge is ramp of more distance run input into smaller lift of exchange. Screw spirals ramp to same math.
10 speed bicycle as truck transmission: different speeds vs. powers trade-offs from same input man or machine. Like electric watts = volts x amps(same battery can deliver more volts at less amps etc.), total mechanical power = distance traveled x force, all are E=mc squared
Even hydraulic bottle jack: If compress 4inches down on small cylinder as input
>>that spreads out so wide to large cylinder that only outputs 1\4inch lift is 16x leveraged return
>>(then times lever input into small cylinder)
All examples above are same volume of force as water in aquarium volume that can be let to run long or forced into smaller\higher aquarium(like higher is higher pressure on side glass), the volume of water force exists and will go far or high. Concentrated or diluted lemonade has the same lemonade power total, but weaker can go longer distance etc.
.
Yin/Yang trade off to the same sum of force\distance, no free ride, pay the piper
>>in fact always some loss\tax of conversion, usually frictions(who's heat force make/up fore loss)
.
Pic:
Zrig is simple answer. 3x pull lengths on load from 1x input.
3 possible pulley positions:
Pulley on load output, gives 2 legs of pull against for more power
Pulley on effort input have to pull 2 legs to get one movement, so pulls faster but weaker
Pulley on non-moving part\anchor is 1:1 breakeven point, but change in direction
.
i'd use truck like a mule instead of Maasdam.
Keep gas, good tires, put load in back on solid ground , consider low pulley to truck if line angle upwards would reduce traction too much when tensioning line.
If a tool is rated at 1000#, i only look to work in clear power band of 250-500#, and lifting more conservative SWL ratio.
W(h)ore out Maasdam cam and left behind at some point.
.
i'd prefer over the top tie off, to Bowline for then SEPARATE zrig pulling (losing highest prusik)
>>i favour (when can) prussik grab tightline (thinner) to TENSIONLESS (so same line now fatter) line\as shelf for prussik to sit on, as most positive. If doing all in one tree pull and zRig would favour Bfly option, instead of 2x1000# on prusik.
Other prussik input less force into for zrig input, is more like this, but i might even throw slip knot in tail under
>>but in an case would place, set prussik, then pull prussik hard in opposite target direction of proposed pull, then snap back to correct direction of pull to seat.
.
Counter-intuitively: have to pull more stretch of line from zRig input,
>>BUT load pull from other end of 3000# would only get 1000# type load elasticity (stiffer) dampening per foot of zRig, not per foot of line in zRig. 3000 pull on same single line shockload gives more elastic dampening; as it enroaches more on the total capacity of the line at 3000 rather than 1000!
rfwoody
Treehouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #35
Yeah, this is what happened to me with the Pecan tree...... it surprised me during the back cut when the tree started to pinch my bar (and I added wedges) -- I evidently thought I had enough tension in the line, but I didn't have...... that was really the first hint that things weren't going as I had expected.
... and ...
Thanks Marc. --- those first 2 are the 2 main/only rigging ropes I have...... but after the pecan tree I'm going to start erring on the side of strength of the stable-braid until I start to get a good sense/feel of things.
This sounds like a good guideline Sean. ---- I don't think I've ever gone beyond 6 or 7 at max due to fear of the rope breaking............... but it has been said that the Maasdam CRP will *slip* before it gets to the point of breaking the 3-strand rope.
SeanKroll
Treehouser
Robert, again, if you can get some known weight using a bathroom scale, like three logs, then lift them through a pulley, with the CRP in your normal pulling situation (horizontal off your truck), you will know what your 6-7 really means, in a quantitative measurement.
This is where you can use the truck to anchor the CRP for lifting, and then be able to drive the truck to lower the load.
You will also know what it looks like when the known force is pulling against your truck.
P.S. in regards to you mentioning somewhere about having bought paint. Any color of white, however much it sticks to the gray primer will be better than nothing. Don't worry about messing up your paint job. In 10 minutes, with a piece of cardboard instead of masking tape, you're looking a lot better. People say that the better you look rolling up, the more you can charge, all else being equal.
This is where you can use the truck to anchor the CRP for lifting, and then be able to drive the truck to lower the load.
You will also know what it looks like when the known force is pulling against your truck.
P.S. in regards to you mentioning somewhere about having bought paint. Any color of white, however much it sticks to the gray primer will be better than nothing. Don't worry about messing up your paint job. In 10 minutes, with a piece of cardboard instead of masking tape, you're looking a lot better. People say that the better you look rolling up, the more you can charge, all else being equal.
rfwoody
Treehouser
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #38
Sean, I get it now... with the pulley, picking up the wood vertically via a pulley! ... that is a great idea.
Actually I could even estimate with a (green) wood chart.
ha, thanks for the continued ribbing on the truck... yeah, that sounds good.... something better than nothing.
Actually I could even estimate with a (green) wood chart.
ha, thanks for the continued ribbing on the truck... yeah, that sounds good.... something better than nothing.
SeanKroll
Treehouser
Green log weight chart isn't going to tell you reality. Tree weight varies by season. Crotch and stump wood are denser.
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