After 23 years of dealing with ladders of all heights as a roofer, my problem isn't how the bottom is held...it's the use of hands on rails and not the steps. The guy climbing would get fired on my old crew if he climbed like that a second time after being warned. I've had lives saved more than once when a ladder flipped and the climber ended up under the ladder holding on to a step...
ladder safety
- Thread starter frans
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SeanKroll
Treehouser
The extension ladder I typically use is nice and light, and rated for 250 pounds. I could only have a 6 years old hold the ladder for me by standing on it before going above the load rating.
biggun
Monkey for Hire
I was always told 1 foot out for every 4 foot height. Or in my case Toe on the bottom and should be able to touch the ladder at arms length.
As for climbing the ladder, steps are for feet and dog shit and everything else you have trod in. Rails are for hands when ascending and descending.
Looking at the picture, I would have thought a full man and equipment hanging on the underside would provide similar force to someone day dreaming and footing the ladder on the other side.
Most footing of ladders I do or climbing the ladders is for hedging jobs. You wouldn't want to be on the underside of the ladder with all the crap falling in you.
As for climbing the ladder, steps are for feet and dog shit and everything else you have trod in. Rails are for hands when ascending and descending.
Looking at the picture, I would have thought a full man and equipment hanging on the underside would provide similar force to someone day dreaming and footing the ladder on the other side.
Most footing of ladders I do or climbing the ladders is for hedging jobs. You wouldn't want to be on the underside of the ladder with all the crap falling in you.
biggun
Monkey for Hire
These guys can certainly climb a ladder. One of my mates is a fireman in the UK and he was impressed when he saw the clip but commented there should be at least 3 rungs above the top ledge.
https://youtu.be/e1ioz21VqYk
https://youtu.be/e1ioz21VqYk
In the construction world, most everyone has the hands on the rails for two reasons: 1. Mud or even worse chemicals (plant work) on the steps themselves or 2. Hands on the steps you arent three points of contract unless you go slow. Seems trivial but if you work on a ladder all day every day it adds up
Excellent thread. Ladder safety is huge in tree care. We use ladders a lot so I'm interested.
A 15-20 minute web search produced no definitive answers to the questions at hand, though this excerpt from a fire fighter site berates the method pictured in post #1:
"5. Footing the ladder: It amazes me that people are still getting taught to foot the ladder from the rear. The best place to be is in the front. You can see what is happening to the building, you can see what is happening to the firefighters climbing the ladder, you are in the perfect position for victim rescue (firefighter or civilian), and you can assist in taking the bounce out of the ladder. In addition you can keep an eye what is going on, and avoid falling debris."
Another fire fighter site showed 2 guys holding the ladder, one on each rail, footing it from the front. Nowhere did I find recommendations to hold it from behind as in post #1.
Most info recommended climbing by holding the rungs not the rails, but Kyle's reasoning re foul substances on the rungs at construction sites makes sense. And Sean's note that having the ladder footed by an adult standing on the lowest rung causes the weight rating of virtually every ladder to be exceeded is interesting, I hadn't thought of that.
It is surprising that despite the extremely widespread use of ladders there is no consensus on best usage.
A 15-20 minute web search produced no definitive answers to the questions at hand, though this excerpt from a fire fighter site berates the method pictured in post #1:
"5. Footing the ladder: It amazes me that people are still getting taught to foot the ladder from the rear. The best place to be is in the front. You can see what is happening to the building, you can see what is happening to the firefighters climbing the ladder, you are in the perfect position for victim rescue (firefighter or civilian), and you can assist in taking the bounce out of the ladder. In addition you can keep an eye what is going on, and avoid falling debris."
Another fire fighter site showed 2 guys holding the ladder, one on each rail, footing it from the front. Nowhere did I find recommendations to hold it from behind as in post #1.
Most info recommended climbing by holding the rungs not the rails, but Kyle's reasoning re foul substances on the rungs at construction sites makes sense. And Sean's note that having the ladder footed by an adult standing on the lowest rung causes the weight rating of virtually every ladder to be exceeded is interesting, I hadn't thought of that.
It is surprising that despite the extremely widespread use of ladders there is no consensus on best usage.
bstewert
TreeHouser
I'd feel better going up if that guy was standing on the bottom step, or at least had his toes blocking the bottom legs. As for rails vs steps, I'd say both/either, depending on the situation at the moment.
Steve Mack
Life Member.
My 30' ladder is a '77 model so the weight rating doesn't apply to it, you could have two people standing on the bottom rung, they don't make them like that anymore. I feel quite safe on it actually.
My 20' one is really light, rarely goes more than halfway extended. Don't feel good on it.
When you've come down a ladder after going up with cat shit on your boots it's a bit hard to not use the rails.
I usually use the foot on the front method, also tie off about the third rung. Usually only on palms so that's easy.
Interesting story on the actual fire. http://www.northbaybusinessjournal..../7571420-181/carls-jr-santa-rosa-burgers-fire
I can see a use for both in different situations. In the story, rushing up with gear to cut in the roof you wouldn't want to be in his way so behind would be best I think.
My 20' one is really light, rarely goes more than halfway extended. Don't feel good on it.
When you've come down a ladder after going up with cat shit on your boots it's a bit hard to not use the rails.
I usually use the foot on the front method, also tie off about the third rung. Usually only on palms so that's easy.
Interesting story on the actual fire. http://www.northbaybusinessjournal..../7571420-181/carls-jr-santa-rosa-burgers-fire
I can see a use for both in different situations. In the story, rushing up with gear to cut in the roof you wouldn't want to be in his way so behind would be best I think.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
B Stewart. I use standoffs similar to this. They simply slide into the holes on the side of the ladder. They make a ladder way more stable.
I don't do windows but I use them where the standoff goes on the roof, stops the ladder from denting the eaves, so that you can put the proper angle on the ladder. Also shares the load. Also the top of the ladder will be on usually either shingles, very grippy, or metal which you just line up contact in the valleys of the profile, also very secure.
I don't do windows but I use them where the standoff goes on the roof, stops the ladder from denting the eaves, so that you can put the proper angle on the ladder. Also shares the load. Also the top of the ladder will be on usually either shingles, very grippy, or metal which you just line up contact in the valleys of the profile, also very secure.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
It is night and day difference to ascend a ladder with standoffs vs one without.
bstewert
TreeHouser
I can see those standoffs working on a flat vertical wall. Can't picture it on an overhang eve, like in the pic. The arms would be touching the roof shingles?
Interesting conversation all told...in the fire service here we are taught foot the ladder from the front, hold on to the rails...in a past life I was taught hold on to the rungs.
Never been taught to hang on to a ladder from underneath.
1:4 ratio for how far out from the thing its leaning on, and at least three rungs up past the step off point, tie it off as soon as you can.
I was working off a ladder in a tree, not very high but I had my harness on and lanyard up above around a branch, did what Gary did, leaned just that bit too far and sat and swung into my harness as the ladder went sideways, maybe we push it a bit knowing we are tied in...anyway, beats hitting the ground.
Never been taught to hang on to a ladder from underneath.
1:4 ratio for how far out from the thing its leaning on, and at least three rungs up past the step off point, tie it off as soon as you can.
I was working off a ladder in a tree, not very high but I had my harness on and lanyard up above around a branch, did what Gary did, leaned just that bit too far and sat and swung into my harness as the ladder went sideways, maybe we push it a bit knowing we are tied in...anyway, beats hitting the ground.
squisher
THE CALM ONE!!!!
This will help you envision it better. I'm not making this up. Ladder standoffs make ladders way more stable, allow much easier roof access, and protect gutters. I use them all the time, unless I don't need them. so I have plenty of experience using them and not using them. Set up properly they allow you to use a less steep angle with less chance of the ladder kicking out, as well as making the top much more stable. Allowing you to get on and off the ladder to/from the roof with much more ease and confidence.
I use a stand-off like the one in the second picture and Squisher is not exaggerating when he says it makes a big difference in stability. Not sure one could be made for tree work but for anything involving a building, they are great.
SeanKroll
Treehouser
I stand on the top of the rails, sometimes, because I'm tied in, and stable.
This seems to be the right height for a lot of canopy raises, with my 25' ladder.
Page
TreeHouser
I can see holding a ladder different ways. There is hardly ever one correct way to do something. However a ladder can definitely kick out with someone standing on the bottom rung. But now they won't be able to do anything about the falling ladder except maybe get caught up in it.
bstewert
TreeHouser
I see. Hate leaning a ladder against the gutters.
Steve Mack
Life Member.
Just go over them then, no problem.
bstewert
TreeHouser
Wow!
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