gotta get this one off my chest

Steve Mack said:
I wish somebody would, I don't know much about maples and I'm sick of re reading this thread.

Dan said Maple, Cory said Norway maple. Around here I only seem to see Sycamore maple/ Acer pseudoplatanus. So hinge wise I wouldn't have a clue.
Click to expand...

Read poor hinging qualities. Brittle
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #79
saying that hinge was "compromised" by the corner cuts is like saying a 7,000 lb rope is compromised by using a running bowline to lower a 150 lb limb. Technically its true, but completely irrelevant to the function.
 
SO are you gonna answer the question... kerf cuts at height, yes.

But you were felling from the floor. Explain yourself please or is just drama you're after?
 
I'm curious why you would nip the sides while using a tapered hinge, espescially the fat side? If the outer part of the hinge with the most leverage strength was being nipped off why were you using a tapered hinge again? I may have missed it I'll look back.

And I'll agree that it's somewhat muddying the waters to compare nipping the outsides of a hinge at ground level with placing cuts below the hinge to prevent tear outs while aloft. The one has nothing to do with the other.

Cheers to you Daniel for having a discussion. :)
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #86
If you read the o.p. Squish, you'll remember that this thread was about 2 guys standing too close to the DZ causing me to waive them off, at which point the skid steer op pulled early before the back cut was completed. I will use the tapered hinge regularly when most guys wouldn't. Perhaps to fight a little side lean or give added protection to a valuable obstacle on one side of the LZ, but did not use it intentionally here...

I have intentionally practiced this cut for years in non-critical applications, trying to glean a complete understanding of its use. Unfortunately it is a fairly unreliable cut. Sometimes it works incredibly well to fight side lean, and other times seems to have little effect. Perhaps this is why it is a truly controversial subject to this day. When I wrote the article in TCI magazine, Ken Palmer told me face to face that the tapered hinge has no benefit to fight side lean and his scientist buddies in Germany had proved it. It is no longer taught to professional fallers.

On the other hand any experienced faller knows that a tree can be steered with the back cut. It seems like the controversy might be due to the effects being somewhat species dependent. Personally I have noticed red maple will tend to fall perfectly perpendicular to the backcut, even when it is fifteen or more degrees off the notch and the lean or pull favor the notch's 90. This is why in many situations you want to be certain the hinge is straight. Best way to do that is to eyeball the gunning line as the back cut is getting finished.

I may have ended up using a slight taper here, but certainly didn't mean to leave that much taper and that much meat on the hinge.. I did not start that back cut thinking I'll leave a good taper to the hinge. If the skid steer op hadn't pulled early I would have level out the cut..
 
I'm not sure a person can aways say what they please, even in a free country. Better to sometimes leave it at think what you please.
 
Stump Analysis 101.

I love Jed's stumps. They are all perfect. Least the one's he shows us, anyway.

We all can not make perfect stumps every time. Fact, I'm been ashamed of some of my own, from time to time, but I strive to do the best I can.

A quote from Jon Taylor of Ft. Bragg, an old cohort of mine, "Sometimes, Jer, to get a tree to go where you want you got to make an ugly stump." He said that to me over 40 years ago, and he's still falling timber today.

Murph, not having been there, the geometry of the stump doesn't appear too out of the norm, for dealing with a side leaner anyway, but I can't help but agree with Brian about the evidence of whittling the stump with a compromised bar and chain.

Been there and done myself that a few times, even.

Now, "You know when you made a really bad stump when you cut it off at ground level, and try to hide it."
 
Ok, besides the ugly notch, please enlighten us on the cuts to the sap wood. I may have missed it but I'm still confused as to when it became an urban legend. back to the original post. Why were you not using the comms? I remember you posting before on miscommunication with the skid steer operator and smashing another tree or something like that.
 
murphy4trees said:
If you read the o.p. Squish, you'll remember that this thread was about 2 guys standing too close to the DZ causing me to waive them off, at which point the skid steer op pulled early before the back cut was completed. I will use the tapered hinge regularly when most guys wouldn't. Perhaps to fight a little side lean or give added protection to a valuable obstacle on one side of the LZ, but did not use it intentionally here...

I have intentionally practiced this cut for years in non-critical applications, trying to glean a complete understanding of its use. Unfortunately it is a fairly unreliable cut. Sometimes it works incredibly well to fight side lean, and other times seems to have little effect. Perhaps this is why it is a truly controversial subject to this day. When I wrote the article in TCI magazine, Ken Palmer told me face to face that the tapered hinge has no benefit to fight side lean and his scientist buddies in Germany had proved it. It is no longer taught to professional fallers.

On the other hand any experienced faller knows that a tree can be steered with the back cut. It seems like the controversy might be due to the effects being somewhat species dependent. Personally I have noticed red maple will tend to fall perfectly perpendicular to the backcut, even when it is fifteen or more degrees off the notch and the lean or pull favor the notch's 90. This is why in many situations you want to be certain the hinge is straight. Best way to do that is to eyeball the gunning line as the back cut is getting finished.

I may have ended up using a slight taper here, but certainly didn't mean to leave that much taper and that much meat on the hinge.. I did not start that back cut thinking I'll leave a good taper to the hinge. If the skid steer op hadn't pulled early I would have level out the cut..
Click to expand...

Dan, what did you say to Palmer in reply ? Was he saying that the tapered back hinge won't help keep a side leaner stay on course with the face cut ? or was he saying that on a fair standing tree, a tapered hinge won't make it deviate from the face ? Two different things. Is your article still viewable somewhere ? Thanks
 
I appreciate the response Daniel. Am curious still why you nipped the sapwood. What where your thoughts/reasons for doing it?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #92
treebilly said:
Ok, besides the ugly notch, please enlighten us on the cuts to the sap wood. I may have missed it but I'm still confused as to when it became an urban legend. back to the original post. Why were you not using the comms? I remember you posting before on miscommunication with the skid steer operator and smashing another tree or something like that.
Click to expand...

If you had simply asked about the corner cuts on page 2 we wouldn't be here on page 10... But you want to criticize, and you're still talking shit, like you know something!

then don't come asking for my understanding.. Figure it out for yourself... I did! And its no big deal, pretty simple actually... learned from the school of hard knocks...
I've been cutting trees since you were three years old.. That's given me plenty of time to make a lot of mistakes... And I learned from those mistakes.. Maybe... just maybe.. you can learn from yours too.
 
Everyone...

FBS-00340-3.jpg
 
murphy4trees said:
If you had simply asked about the corner cuts on page 2 we wouldn't be here on page 10... But you want to criticize, and you're still talking shit, like you know something!

then don't come asking for my understanding.. Figure it out for yourself... I did! And its no big deal, pretty simple actually... learned from the school of hard knocks...
I've been cutting trees since you were three years old.. That's given me plenty of time to make a lot of mistakes... And I learned from those mistakes.. Maybe... just maybe.. you can learn from yours too.
Click to expand...

Lame.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #96
Skwerl2 said:
No response on the poorly sharpened saw cutting crooked?
Click to expand...

I didn't sharpen the saw.. Barely used it.. Just showed up to put the tree on the ground.. Noticed it was cutting kind of funny.. Felt like it was biting pretty good sometimes, but not all the time.. Might be from the bar rails being off, or more likely a problem with the chain. I need to get some flat files... I haven't sharpened a chain in some time.. probably last year
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #100
RegC said:
Dan, what did you say to Palmer in reply ? Was he saying that the tapered back hinge won't help keep a side leaner stay on course with the face cut ? or was he saying that on a fair standing tree, a tapered hinge won't make it deviate from the face ? Two different things. Is your article still viewable somewhere ? Thanks
Click to expand...

http://www.tcia.org/TCI-publications/tci-magazine/pdfs/07-2004-TCI-Mag_0.pdf

starts on pg 8

I just re-read the article.. it's actually a little embarrassing .. I've changed my techniques in some respects since then... worst thing about the article is the pictures. I didn't have a good one.. Palmer rightly pointed out that the mulberry hinge just blew up and really didn't hold .... I actually agreed with him on that one... I didn't argue with him when he definitely announced that the Germans had proved the tapered hinge is no good in holding against side leaners .... I would like to see the science... Still would...
 
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