pantheraba
More biners!!!
Good show there.
Derrick rigging and redneck cranes
- Thread starter Tree09
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Good show there.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Drag that sucker!
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #53
Lol and now that is a rock! How big of a divit did that one make when it came down? Like you B, I've come to have contempt for most engineers now, know stuff is one thing but doing it is another. Most of the ones I come across look down on a guy wearing bibs, but they don't know chit.
I hadn't followed the cup too closely in a few years (the Volvo race is more my style lol), I knew they were using the multi hulls but I didn't know they finally allowed foils... The speeds that they can obtain with those is insane, my dad's bass boat does 63 tops, and that's pretty much too fast on the water imo.... Clip a log at that speed and the catfish will get you before they find you in a lock and dam... The really cool thing about sailboat rigging now is that they are slowly switching back to the traditional methods, but with new materials. Rope stropped blocks, soft shackles and toggles, deadeyes for tensioning standing rigging, which is also once again rope. That's state of the art cutting edge stuff again now lol. Even the fact that they are using multihulls, I'm pretty sure Nat Herreshoff built a catamaran that they didn't allow in the cup (he had several boats of his design in the cup tho later). It always amuses me when "technology" really is just repeating the past in a slightly different way. I'm a huge fan of the older traditional working boats, and the lower aspect hull and sail forms. While not as fast as the new high aspect sails, they worked over a much larger wind speed window, and were designed for ease of handling and specific jobs. They also used the same rigging as this thread, and much can be learned in studying them. It's where the name rigging comes from after all. The methods they used in the age of sail are what we use now, more than we know. Capstan winches, deadeyes, belay pins, and toggles are now a grcs, rigging ring, porta wrap, and a carbiner.
I hadn't followed the cup too closely in a few years (the Volvo race is more my style lol), I knew they were using the multi hulls but I didn't know they finally allowed foils... The speeds that they can obtain with those is insane, my dad's bass boat does 63 tops, and that's pretty much too fast on the water imo.... Clip a log at that speed and the catfish will get you before they find you in a lock and dam... The really cool thing about sailboat rigging now is that they are slowly switching back to the traditional methods, but with new materials. Rope stropped blocks, soft shackles and toggles, deadeyes for tensioning standing rigging, which is also once again rope. That's state of the art cutting edge stuff again now lol. Even the fact that they are using multihulls, I'm pretty sure Nat Herreshoff built a catamaran that they didn't allow in the cup (he had several boats of his design in the cup tho later). It always amuses me when "technology" really is just repeating the past in a slightly different way. I'm a huge fan of the older traditional working boats, and the lower aspect hull and sail forms. While not as fast as the new high aspect sails, they worked over a much larger wind speed window, and were designed for ease of handling and specific jobs. They also used the same rigging as this thread, and much can be learned in studying them. It's where the name rigging comes from after all. The methods they used in the age of sail are what we use now, more than we know. Capstan winches, deadeyes, belay pins, and toggles are now a grcs, rigging ring, porta wrap, and a carbiner.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #54
Alrighty, I got a few min before I pass out, so here we go. Anchoring one of these contraptions down is the next consideration. While volumes can be written about different anchoring methods, I'll cover a few that I've researched. In the construction world, you usually have something to rig off of, an I beam, catwalk, concrete, etc. When those aren't present, or when conditions merit, portable lifts designed of off similar principles are often used. I scored a duct lift, aka a 5 12 lift, when they were cleaning out the yard one day. It lifts 500 pounds 12' in the air, hence the innovative name lol. I've used this on many tree jobs, because my only methods for moving trees through gates is an arbor trolley and a log arch (i do a bunch of backyard work). If you are using carts to move stuff, these can do ok, and the price was right for me (free).
The other handy lift is known as a roustabout lift, which is basically a telescoping gin pole with a spar across the top to move the load a couple feet from the mast. They can lift dramatically more weight, and do it surprisingly fast for being manually powered, because they have 2 speed winches and can pick either single or double line. They have large wheels like the 512, and can simply be pushed over a truck bed or trailer.
You will notice that the load stays in the footprint on these lifts. That way they don't need ballasting or guying. The hydraulic engine lift works the same way. If the load is forced outside their footprint, they will tip over.
The other handy lift is known as a roustabout lift, which is basically a telescoping gin pole with a spar across the top to move the load a couple feet from the mast. They can lift dramatically more weight, and do it surprisingly fast for being manually powered, because they have 2 speed winches and can pick either single or double line. They have large wheels like the 512, and can simply be pushed over a truck bed or trailer.
You will notice that the load stays in the footprint on these lifts. That way they don't need ballasting or guying. The hydraulic engine lift works the same way. If the load is forced outside their footprint, they will tip over.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #55
But for other times, an easy to use anchor isn't readily available, so we need to improvise. A common one that most of us probably use is a tree or stump, and since we actually have loggers here, I won't embarrass myself by covering them further. Another good one is a truck or piece of equipment, chocking the wheels adds greatly to the staying power, as does loading it heavily. If using a piece of equipment, put the digging implement to where dragging it makes it plow into the ground, quite impressive loads can be held this way. For heavier pulls in a truck, digging a shallow trench sized for a log, then chaining the log to the bumper, so that pulling the truck forward locks the log just in front of the wheels. You basically turn the truck into a deadman, with the weight of the truck posing the log into the trench.
Deadman anchors are quite a bit more work to install, but can be done with tree trunks, so for us here would be economical at a yard. Adding vertical logs to further shore up the tension side ups the capacity further. Deadman anchors can resist massive loads, and can be used in skyline logging. The usfs has technical pdf files on them and their capacities in various soil conditions. Cable logging btw, is literally the application of derricks, although they have been called different names due to their similar, but simultaneous development.
View attachment 83758
Another form of deadman anchor is digging a big hole and filling it with cement. Anyone who has ever had the privilege of digging up a fence post will notice that very strong anchors can be made. If doing a permanent, high load derrick, these anchors are worth the cost. This is how large construction anchors and guys for large towers are built.
Deadman anchors are quite a bit more work to install, but can be done with tree trunks, so for us here would be economical at a yard. Adding vertical logs to further shore up the tension side ups the capacity further. Deadman anchors can resist massive loads, and can be used in skyline logging. The usfs has technical pdf files on them and their capacities in various soil conditions. Cable logging btw, is literally the application of derricks, although they have been called different names due to their similar, but simultaneous development.
View attachment 83758
Another form of deadman anchor is digging a big hole and filling it with cement. Anyone who has ever had the privilege of digging up a fence post will notice that very strong anchors can be made. If doing a permanent, high load derrick, these anchors are worth the cost. This is how large construction anchors and guys for large towers are built.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #56
When these aren't practical, screw or helical anchors are handy. AS SOMEONE WHO WORKS IN THE UTILITY INDUSTRY, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE HAVE A LOCATE DONE BEFORE MESSING WITH ANY ANCHORS!!!! So many people die by digging in the middle of nowhere only to hit a pipeline or electrical line. A father and son died north of us last month or so replacing field tile in a cornfield. Please call, it's free. Ok soapbox over. Larger screw anchors are used in guying transmission poles. Helical anchors are used for foundations, and can reach very impressive loads. They are larger versions of a screw anchor, made with pipe and flutes welded to them, assembled in sections and ran in until a certain torque is met. At that point, they can give a set load capacity. Foundation companies install them, so maybe getting a quote to have some out in would be an option on a larger derrick. They also sell patented ones, that can be installed with an impact gun or by hand relatively easy, and will hold many multiples of a similar size screw anchor.
Arrowhead anchors are also very handy, and larger ones can hold massive loads as well. These work by pounding an arrowhead shaped metal plate in the ground with a rod, and then pulling on an attached cable to turn it sideways. Some are placed in a posthole, backfilled and tamped, and then set. Once again the usfs has your back with engineering pdfs on this subject.
The other very handy and temporary technique is the picket anchor, which can be combined with deadman logs, and even other picket anchors. A picket is a 2" pipe 5' long, driven into the soil. However other sizes of pipe, fence posts, etc could be used.
This one uses a plate with holes in it, if you couldn't tell from the picture
Arrowhead anchors are also very handy, and larger ones can hold massive loads as well. These work by pounding an arrowhead shaped metal plate in the ground with a rod, and then pulling on an attached cable to turn it sideways. Some are placed in a posthole, backfilled and tamped, and then set. Once again the usfs has your back with engineering pdfs on this subject.
The other very handy and temporary technique is the picket anchor, which can be combined with deadman logs, and even other picket anchors. A picket is a 2" pipe 5' long, driven into the soil. However other sizes of pipe, fence posts, etc could be used.
This one uses a plate with holes in it, if you couldn't tell from the picture
pantheraba
More biners!!!
Good info. I got exposed to that stake and rope picket system in the US Army Field Manual titled "Mountain Operations". Also learned the "Z" drag there...they called it a transport tightening system...had a great picture of moving a jeep over a chasm with ropes.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #59
Yup, the weight is much lower, and it's the high modulus fibers that are doing it. Their reduced friction is why they are being used for others, such as a deadeye for standing rigging. Way less likely to fail than a turnbuckle. The reason that they switched to wire in the first place was for rigidity, because the firmer you make everything the more efficient it is. Since the high modulus ropes are size for size stronger than steel now, they are using them again. Samson actually came out with crane and derrick ropes now (k100) was one of them, which are starting to be used to replace wire rope on some crane installations, and since most derricks are for taking down tower cranes, they will be utilized there as well if they aren't already. A large portion of a lift off the side of a building like that is the weight of the wire rope, and with these new ropes they can do even more than before. The times they are a changing, that's for sure, but slowly going back to what it was originally.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #61
There are several army field manuals that describe all sorts of rigging, I was planning to provide a link so they could be downloaded. There are also many free domain books out there that have tons of info on this as well, and I was going to post some of them as well.
As far as anchors go, you can also add weight to effectively make it a crane, which is another easy and cheap option. The beauty of using these techniques is that with some basic stuff, you can use stuff around you to help you achieve just about any rigging goal. He's a stiffleg from an army field manual, they supplied the derrick as issued gear, and ballast was added for anchoring. So basically you could build it, erect it at your yard, and then use a mini to pile a bunch of logs on it, and then unload logs with it.
SeanKroll
Treehouser
Good info.
Could be useful for a sawmill, if you don't have the capacity in a mini/ other machine.
My friend uses his back-hoe with forks to load his mill, but its taking a beating. Next time I'm talking to him, I'll have to mention it. He maybe could simply weld-up a frame that attaches to his bucket, and add a small 12v winch or two.
Could be useful for a sawmill, if you don't have the capacity in a mini/ other machine.
My friend uses his back-hoe with forks to load his mill, but its taking a beating. Next time I'm talking to him, I'll have to mention it. He maybe could simply weld-up a frame that attaches to his bucket, and add a small 12v winch or two.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #63
While he could add something to his bucket, I don't think that would be the best use. Rigging like this can create considerable strain, several times the weight of what you are attempting to lift, and can easily overpower equipment. The main idea in design is to spread the forces away from each other as much as possible, maximizing leverage while minimizing forces. The problem with wheeled equipment is that you need to provide room for that machine to get to the work. This is sometimes not a big deal, other times it completely slows you down. Cranes don't have that limitation, they can lift stuff over other stuff, and if rigged with it in mind, can allow you to guide the load as you operate it. The forms I've shown so far can take up room, or can be built to provide clearance for trucks and equipment. They also can be built to be movable. There are also other forms he might want to look into if floor space is at a premium, such as a jib crane or even a gantry. Here is a stiffleg derrick on columns, so that the room needed is minimized. Trucks can still drive under it, and so you just have a few small poles to watch out for. Lights, electric outlets, shop air, etc can be hung from them as well, increasing their utility. The base could also have a floor installed, basically adding a second story shop, further improving on area use.
When derricks and other lifting equipment needed to be moved often, they were built on skids, carts, or rail cars called travelers. Here's a page from a book detailing different lifting apparatuses, complete with timber size, load capacity, and traveller dimensions. These are actually engineered prints from around ww1, and while simple, are effective machines that were actually used on construction jobs.
When derricks and other lifting equipment needed to be moved often, they were built on skids, carts, or rail cars called travelers. Here's a page from a book detailing different lifting apparatuses, complete with timber size, load capacity, and traveller dimensions. These are actually engineered prints from around ww1, and while simple, are effective machines that were actually used on construction jobs.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #64
Here's a larger derrick used in the construction of the armory at the university of Illinois, I actually had a couple classes there when I was younger.
And here is prints for a large wooden stiffleg, complete with ironwork details.
And here is prints for a large wooden stiffleg, complete with ironwork details.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Are those still used today?
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #66
You bet. The picture is a 150 ton stiffleg, most likely used for loading and unloading ships or barges. One of the biggest advantages of a stiffleg derrick is that they have much higher capacity at full boom down ranges, where hydraulic cranes can't even move to. Most of the specs I've read on the stifflegs have a boom to mast ratio of 3:1, and can pick quarter capacity or more in some cases at full reach. The wooden forms given there have been replaced by modern cranes, but they built buildings that way into the 70s, mainly on high rise construction where cranes couldn't go yet. Large crane picks are still occasionally done the same way at powerplants and other ginormus projects. Most ship mounted heavy lift cranes are still derricks, and they use them in large precast bridge construction as well, mounted on travelers. That way they have massive capacity without the counterweight loading of a traditional crane. Here's some pics from the Panama canal.
And here's one unloading a ship. Just because they are simple in basic construction doesn't mean they are slow or outdated. They have their limitations, but they have their advantages as well.
And here's one unloading a ship. Just because they are simple in basic construction doesn't mean they are slow or outdated. They have their limitations, but they have their advantages as well.
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
Where's the operator?
I don't see a cab...
I don't see a cab...
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #68
Very good question, because the winches could be mounted anywhere, but they appear to be in the right side, off image. And they likely are radio controlled, so he could be standing on the gunwale. In historic practice, the winches were put in a small shed, and often stayed in place while the derrick was jumped floors or moved. So you could be hundreds of feet away and still be running the derrick. Here's some pages from the American hoist and derrick company (now terex) stifflegs, which are still in use today, a company that specializes in heavy rigging rents them all over the world called f&m mafco. Good luck finding a conventional crane that can touch these numbers...
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #69
I haven't covered the winches yet, and there are a bunch of different ways to power these things. You need to remember that you are lifting heavy stuff in the air over your head, so care has to be used to assure that the winch is not going to drop a load on you when it's brakes fail. They should technically have a racheting pawl safety, so precede with caution. Once again, this can be as simple or as complex as you want to go. 12 volt truck winches can be used, but remember planetary and spur gear winches can be powered in reverse, dropping the load while worm gear and the cycloidial drive ones cannot. You still need brakes and such on them per osha, but they are much safer 
used winches off of a salvaged crane would be amazing, as would air tuggers, or electric hoists. They actually make derrick winches, usually 2 to 4 drum winches, and are found on everything from a yarder to a stand alone unit. With that in mind, the usfs once again has been there, and designed two smaller open source yarders, the bitterroot and the Clearwater. Plans are free and can asked for, they will send them, as I have a copy of each. While the line speeds might be a tad high imo, they could be geared down and would provide wonderful service. The bitterroot one is the smaller of the two, and is based off of a rear end differential. The old pulpwood loaders were also based off of one, and I'm sure someone here has first hand experience, so I'll just leave it at that.
A truck or tractor can be used, as could a few guys pulling on a block and tackle. Often, you can get away with one winch on a smaller setup, using a powered hoist on the load line and manually adjusting the jib when it's off load. A come along it a trifor winch would work, and I often use chainfalls. Chainfalls work by pulling an endless chain in a circle, such then powers a load chain. Because the chains hang down, you can operate them on the ground when they are installed above you (like on a derrick). They make electric and air powered ones too, and their ease of use is very hard to beat. Since the load chain and the pull chain hang down, if used for the hoist function you can operate one handed, guiding the load precisely. Very handy working alone. They are used on every construction site, in very large numbers. The old school ones have two slightly different size pulleys side by side and bolted together, with the chain in an endless loop, with a snatch block and hook on one loop hanging down. As you rotate the pulleys by pulling on the chain, they rotate together and one travels one circumference of chain, while the other travels its circumference in the other way. Since the difference is small, and is halved again by the snatch block, very large mechanical advantages can be achieved. The pulleys have slight friction, which surprisingly holds the load. These are called weston chainfalls, and they work by what's known as the differential pulley, or in other forms the Chinese windlass.
Ignore the pulley right under the top one, they don't usually have them like that. Weston had the patent for the standardized size chain so it would fit in the grooves, bunches of people were trying to get past that, including this pic. But it shows clearly how they are built.
used winches off of a salvaged crane would be amazing, as would air tuggers, or electric hoists. They actually make derrick winches, usually 2 to 4 drum winches, and are found on everything from a yarder to a stand alone unit. With that in mind, the usfs once again has been there, and designed two smaller open source yarders, the bitterroot and the Clearwater. Plans are free and can asked for, they will send them, as I have a copy of each. While the line speeds might be a tad high imo, they could be geared down and would provide wonderful service. The bitterroot one is the smaller of the two, and is based off of a rear end differential. The old pulpwood loaders were also based off of one, and I'm sure someone here has first hand experience, so I'll just leave it at that. A truck or tractor can be used, as could a few guys pulling on a block and tackle. Often, you can get away with one winch on a smaller setup, using a powered hoist on the load line and manually adjusting the jib when it's off load. A come along it a trifor winch would work, and I often use chainfalls. Chainfalls work by pulling an endless chain in a circle, such then powers a load chain. Because the chains hang down, you can operate them on the ground when they are installed above you (like on a derrick). They make electric and air powered ones too, and their ease of use is very hard to beat. Since the load chain and the pull chain hang down, if used for the hoist function you can operate one handed, guiding the load precisely. Very handy working alone. They are used on every construction site, in very large numbers. The old school ones have two slightly different size pulleys side by side and bolted together, with the chain in an endless loop, with a snatch block and hook on one loop hanging down. As you rotate the pulleys by pulling on the chain, they rotate together and one travels one circumference of chain, while the other travels its circumference in the other way. Since the difference is small, and is halved again by the snatch block, very large mechanical advantages can be achieved. The pulleys have slight friction, which surprisingly holds the load. These are called weston chainfalls, and they work by what's known as the differential pulley, or in other forms the Chinese windlass.
Ignore the pulley right under the top one, they don't usually have them like that. Weston had the patent for the standardized size chain so it would fit in the grooves, bunches of people were trying to get past that, including this pic. But it shows clearly how they are built.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #70
Although the differential pulley used chains more commonly because they fit into grooves on the pulley, rope could also work with more wraps. Meaning we could do an end to end splice to make an endless loop of rope, and then make the different sized "pulleys" out of a pipe, with a plate welded in the middle separating the different sizes, which is obtained by welding some 1/8" plate around the circumference on one side. That gives the different size "pulleys" and wraps would be taken on either side. You wouldn't even need a bearing, because all that needs to happen is the pipe to rotate, so you could simply do pipe in pipe. This adds considerable friction, but that's what holds the load anyways. So with a few chunks of pipe and some rope we could actually make the hoists. By adding a few belt drive pulleys, one for forward and one for reverse, we could build a powered hoist. Very very large mechanical advantages can easily be built like this, using 3" pipe the ma is 30:1, minus friction. The bigger the pipe, the less difference there is in diameter, the greater the ma. I plan on building one of these here shortly, will do a thread.
The traditional way to hand power these was use a manual winch known as a crab. They came in all different types of gearing, do they would lift different capacities. One thing to remember if you are going to manually power these things: getting a massive capacity will be very slow due to the ma. Calculate the loads, and rig accordingly. Here's a crab.
The traditional way to hand power these was use a manual winch known as a crab. They came in all different types of gearing, do they would lift different capacities. One thing to remember if you are going to manually power these things: getting a massive capacity will be very slow due to the ma. Calculate the loads, and rig accordingly. Here's a crab.
- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #71
Of course, we're rope guys here, and capstan winches work great too. They have the advantage of being able to free fall, if that's something you want, or being let down quickly. Rigging a union purchase setup, or what's known as a Liverpool rigging, makes using them very fast work. There's also a capstan rigging trick some may not know, if you have one powered winch, but need to winch and hold the load on more lines than one, you can use a racheting bollard as a holding capstan. You take wraps on the holding capstan, then lead to the power capstan, and when you are done, you have the wraps in the holding capstan to hold the load. You can then tie off with a cleat or lighterman hitch, freeing up the power capstan to pull another line. So if you have a portable winch, you can get some racheting strap tie downs and run everything with one powered capstan. 
MasterBlaster
Administrator Emeritus
It outta be!
pantheraba
More biners!!!
Kyle, these are fascinating posts. It'll take me several semesters to begin working my brain around some of this. Thanks for taking the time to put that together...you are a good presenter. I look forward to your thread when you build one of these at your place.
